Scotland.....................
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Pod
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- Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:32 pm
- Location: usually in the barn, Kent, England.
Scotland.....................
Well, the saloon is the place to make comments on politics. Why so quiet
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wattsmonkey
- Platinum Member
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- Location: Cheltenham, U.K.
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Horsetan
My only concern is whether Boyd's E24 spare parts service will automatically become more expensive once Independence is achieved...... 
As I see it, and taking a long hard Celtic view of things, Scots independence is driven by three things:
- romanticism (the idea of being free from the clutches of Westminster);
- resentment (the Scots have never forgiven the late Baroness Thatcher's economic liberalism which in no small way destroyed Scotland's manufacturing and shipbuilding industries in the 1980s - the unions arguably did the rest);
- spite (we Celts, whether Irish, Scots or Welsh, are unrivalled when it comes to spite)
Salmond has nothing to worry about - he will be the Last King of Scotland, come what may.
As I see it, and taking a long hard Celtic view of things, Scots independence is driven by three things:
- romanticism (the idea of being free from the clutches of Westminster);
- resentment (the Scots have never forgiven the late Baroness Thatcher's economic liberalism which in no small way destroyed Scotland's manufacturing and shipbuilding industries in the 1980s - the unions arguably did the rest);
- spite (we Celts, whether Irish, Scots or Welsh, are unrivalled when it comes to spite)
Salmond has nothing to worry about - he will be the Last King of Scotland, come what may.
Very well put.Horsetan wrote:
As I see it, and taking a long hard Celtic view of things, Scots independence is driven by three things:
- romanticism (the idea of being free from the clutches of Westminster);
- resentment (the Scots have never forgiven the late Baroness Thatcher's economic liberalism which in no small way destroyed Scotland's manufacturing and shipbuilding industries in the 1980s - the unions arguably did the rest);
- spite (we Celts, whether Irish, Scots or Welsh, are unrivalled when it comes to spite)
Salmond has nothing to worry about - he will be the Last King of Scotland, come what may.
The large percentage (over 99%?) of registered eligible voters and an expected turnout of in excess of 85%, perhaps 90% will ensure the result, whichever way it goes, will not be in doubt.
Scottish voters should get what they ask for.
As a Scot I've followed this debate and circus from afar.
Whilst I can understand the strong attraction of independence I have never been persuaded that the socioeconomics espoused by the SNP are achievable in the short or long term.
I'm old enough to recall it's conception when Winnie Ewing won the Hamilton By- election in 1967 , it was always flawed and has never morphed into a credible concept to create and build an economy on.
There is, as Horsetan says , an amount of romanticism involved but I believe that the voting masses are aware of the ramifications for or against , and I personally would be sad to see the demise of the United Kingdom.
Overall I am only grateful that it's a truly democratic process without any possibility of corruption or fraud ,all witnessed by the world.
Today, Scotland will get what it wants .
Whilst I can understand the strong attraction of independence I have never been persuaded that the socioeconomics espoused by the SNP are achievable in the short or long term.
I'm old enough to recall it's conception when Winnie Ewing won the Hamilton By- election in 1967 , it was always flawed and has never morphed into a credible concept to create and build an economy on.
There is, as Horsetan says , an amount of romanticism involved but I believe that the voting masses are aware of the ramifications for or against , and I personally would be sad to see the demise of the United Kingdom.
Overall I am only grateful that it's a truly democratic process without any possibility of corruption or fraud ,all witnessed by the world.
Today, Scotland will get what it wants .
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cecotto479
There will be no price increases solely due to independence for a number of reasons, not least of which is that I am of the view that, however desireable, I don't think that the people of Scotland are YET ready to vote for independence.
I do believe that in the next generation though, Scotland will be independent.
Up until 6-8 weeks ago, I'd have agreed with you, Ivan, that independence was founded on a romantic notion, but I have to say that the complete indifference and lack of interest shown by the Westminster political parties and therefore the NO campaign, in the referendum up until last week explains the Scots views on independence perfectly.
The UK government agreed to the referendum (my view is that the SNP majority at the last Scottish elections was NOT a vote for independence, it was an acknowledgement of a decent job done as a minority government in the previous administration and a growing and continuing disaffection with the Labour Party who, frankly, took control of Scotland for granted for too long) on the proviso that the only question should be a Boolean "Yes" or "No". This was a red line for Cameron. There would be no option for increased powers - obviously because he knew that Scots would vote for that in huge numbers - suggested at almost 100% - but that the chances of their voting for full independence were slim.
This indifferent arrogance continued right up until last week, when they finally took cognisance of a changing mood throughout Scotland that being an afterthought of the Westminster parties and parliament simply wasn't good enough. And last week, they buckled and panicked and offered what almost all Scots - including Salmond - would have settled for three years ago. Only now, they can't guarantee it because they don't really know who'll be in power after next Spring and quote understandably, English and Welsh MPs are raging that Scots are getting a better deal than them. That's leaving aside the legal issue of "purdah" - moving the goalposts after votes have been cast. Utterly disgraceful, shameless and demeaning.
This is obviously written from a pro independence point of view, but it is well written and - unlike much of the election propaganda from both sides, cites all of its sources. It should have been compulsory reading for all voters. I think it may be of interest to residents in the rest of the UK too.
http://theweebluebook.com
My belief is that, not before time, rule by Westminster is over. Not just for the countries, but for the regions too. Why should Scotland with a population of 6 million or so have a tax raising parliament and counties in England with a greater population and as little in common with the Westminster elite as Scotland, still have to suffer Bullingdon rule?
This referendum will hopefully change the political spectrum of the whole UK for the better, irrespective of the result.
I do believe that in the next generation though, Scotland will be independent.
Up until 6-8 weeks ago, I'd have agreed with you, Ivan, that independence was founded on a romantic notion, but I have to say that the complete indifference and lack of interest shown by the Westminster political parties and therefore the NO campaign, in the referendum up until last week explains the Scots views on independence perfectly.
The UK government agreed to the referendum (my view is that the SNP majority at the last Scottish elections was NOT a vote for independence, it was an acknowledgement of a decent job done as a minority government in the previous administration and a growing and continuing disaffection with the Labour Party who, frankly, took control of Scotland for granted for too long) on the proviso that the only question should be a Boolean "Yes" or "No". This was a red line for Cameron. There would be no option for increased powers - obviously because he knew that Scots would vote for that in huge numbers - suggested at almost 100% - but that the chances of their voting for full independence were slim.
This indifferent arrogance continued right up until last week, when they finally took cognisance of a changing mood throughout Scotland that being an afterthought of the Westminster parties and parliament simply wasn't good enough. And last week, they buckled and panicked and offered what almost all Scots - including Salmond - would have settled for three years ago. Only now, they can't guarantee it because they don't really know who'll be in power after next Spring and quote understandably, English and Welsh MPs are raging that Scots are getting a better deal than them. That's leaving aside the legal issue of "purdah" - moving the goalposts after votes have been cast. Utterly disgraceful, shameless and demeaning.
This is obviously written from a pro independence point of view, but it is well written and - unlike much of the election propaganda from both sides, cites all of its sources. It should have been compulsory reading for all voters. I think it may be of interest to residents in the rest of the UK too.
http://theweebluebook.com
My belief is that, not before time, rule by Westminster is over. Not just for the countries, but for the regions too. Why should Scotland with a population of 6 million or so have a tax raising parliament and counties in England with a greater population and as little in common with the Westminster elite as Scotland, still have to suffer Bullingdon rule?
This referendum will hopefully change the political spectrum of the whole UK for the better, irrespective of the result.
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Horsetan
Very much soHorsetan wrote:Be careful what ye wish for.sharkfan wrote:...Scottish voters should get what they ask for.
I was expressing a neutral position regarding the hopefully successful democratic process in action; whether you are a Yes or No voter, Scottish residents should be free to vote with their heart, mind or conscience and more importantly, because of the expected high turn out, accept the result regardless of whether it was what they voted for - to do otherwise entirely misses the point of a democratic vote and the fact that you can have a vote in the first place.
My overriding concern however is that, regardless of whether the decision on Friday morning is Yes or No, how much damage do you think has been caused to Scotland's reputation, brands, products, tourism and industry by the conduct of the Yes campaign and in particular the very obvious anti-English sentiments that however commonplace or rare quite naturally have received a lot of press within your largest neighbour and trading partner?
Another interesting question for those in the UK but outside of Scotland is (all purely hypothetical so please don't angry or personal) if there was a referendum in the rUK to eject or keep Scotland from the Union how would you have voted;
1. 2 years ago?
2. Today?
3. 2 years time if perhaps the negotiations for Independence have stalled, the SNP removed from power through election and some of the realisations of Currency, EU membership, fiscal accountability, NATO membership, Border controls, Industry and investment come to pass.
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Horsetan
Some of the Regions were polled about this a few years ago and it was rejected.Horsetan wrote:In that case, only two letters need to be swapped, from United Kingdom to Untied Kingdom....cecotto479 wrote:.....My belief is that, not before time, rule by Westminster is over. Not just for the countries, but for the regions too. ......
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Horsetan
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cecotto479
I have neither seen, nor heard a single anti English sentiment expressed. It is not about England. It is about self determination and democracy. It is about voting for representatives who understand your viewpoint AND have a chance of doing something to represent it.
Frankly, it's about making an arse of things ourselves, instead of having Westminster do it it for us.
Nor have I seen any of the intimidation that was being complained of.
I have seen some appallingly biased reporting of the campaigns by national media and by the BBC in particular.
I think Scotland's reputation worldwide will survive just fine. It has been, by any measure a fascinating and exciting process. Everybody is talking about it. The Scottish population now knows far, far more about how it is governed and run than it used to. That can only be a good thing.
I know couples where one spouse is voting No and one Yes. Nobody is falling out about it. Don't believe everything you hear on the BBC.
I am voting in a particular way - have voted in fact. I shall not be in the least bit upset if the other side wins. I think that most people feel the same. There will be no "split" or "division" that the media loves to suggest will be the legacy. It's nonsense.
Frankly, it's about making an arse of things ourselves, instead of having Westminster do it it for us.
Nor have I seen any of the intimidation that was being complained of.
I have seen some appallingly biased reporting of the campaigns by national media and by the BBC in particular.
I think Scotland's reputation worldwide will survive just fine. It has been, by any measure a fascinating and exciting process. Everybody is talking about it. The Scottish population now knows far, far more about how it is governed and run than it used to. That can only be a good thing.
I know couples where one spouse is voting No and one Yes. Nobody is falling out about it. Don't believe everything you hear on the BBC.
I am voting in a particular way - have voted in fact. I shall not be in the least bit upset if the other side wins. I think that most people feel the same. There will be no "split" or "division" that the media loves to suggest will be the legacy. It's nonsense.
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cecotto479
I don't think that any of the arguments for Scottish independence are any different from those that could be stated for any other part of the UK. It is called democracy; just choose your sense of scale accordingly.
In voting for 'independence' Scotland would effectively be voting to change from being about 10% of the UK, (a G8 member with a permanent seat in the UN) to being barely 0.7% of a Europe that increasingly doesn't give a monkey's about smaller countries, whilst actively promoting their ever finer division (ever heard of 'divide and conquer'? That is what the top people in the EU want and Scotland might just help them along....)
An independent Scotland would rank alongside Slovakia in European importance, but without the nice central geographic location.
In terms of the Commonwealth, Scotland would arguably be of similar importance to (say) Sierra Leone.
As for 'Westminster messing up Scottish policy', goodness knows.... Scots are disproportionately represented at Westminster and always have been. Of the last three prime ministers two were born in Scotland and the third comes from a Scottish family. Arguably If Westminster is messing up Scottish policy it is Scotsmen who are probably doing it...
It'll be interesting to see what happens.
cheers
In voting for 'independence' Scotland would effectively be voting to change from being about 10% of the UK, (a G8 member with a permanent seat in the UN) to being barely 0.7% of a Europe that increasingly doesn't give a monkey's about smaller countries, whilst actively promoting their ever finer division (ever heard of 'divide and conquer'? That is what the top people in the EU want and Scotland might just help them along....)
An independent Scotland would rank alongside Slovakia in European importance, but without the nice central geographic location.
In terms of the Commonwealth, Scotland would arguably be of similar importance to (say) Sierra Leone.
As for 'Westminster messing up Scottish policy', goodness knows.... Scots are disproportionately represented at Westminster and always have been. Of the last three prime ministers two were born in Scotland and the third comes from a Scottish family. Arguably If Westminster is messing up Scottish policy it is Scotsmen who are probably doing it...
It'll be interesting to see what happens.
cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
the votes were; 45% for independence, 55% for the Union. Democracy has been served and unlike a general election the turnout was high, ~85%.
But....it isn't quite over yet. The fallout is that there is more devolution to come -but we are not sure how exactly given the timing of the next general election- and in addition the long running West Lothian question remains unaddressed.
cheers
But....it isn't quite over yet. The fallout is that there is more devolution to come -but we are not sure how exactly given the timing of the next general election- and in addition the long running West Lothian question remains unaddressed.
cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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brickwhite
- Posts: 797
- Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:29 pm
- Location: Broomfield, CO
For a country that would have been the size of Massacusetts or maybe maine, 85% turn out is pretty good.
What we need to do is get rid of New York, California and Chicago that would be a good start. How do we start the independence proceedings for those new countries.
What we need to do is get rid of New York, California and Chicago that would be a good start. How do we start the independence proceedings for those new countries.
vadon wrote:As U.S. citizens, we should take note: 85% turn-out. Our turn-out rates are embarrassing,all we do is bitch.
"Getting rid of" everyone with whom one might disagree is the mindset fueling the chaos in current Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc.
People who's views don't agree with yours aren't wrong- even if you think so- they just disagree with you. As yesterday's voters in Scotland have just so overwhelmingly demonstrated, living in and being part of a representative democracy means abiding by the will of the majority as expressed in elections- even when your side loses.
Just sayin'.
People who's views don't agree with yours aren't wrong- even if you think so- they just disagree with you. As yesterday's voters in Scotland have just so overwhelmingly demonstrated, living in and being part of a representative democracy means abiding by the will of the majority as expressed in elections- even when your side loses.
Just sayin'.
Rob Welch
1988 M6 Black/ Lotus
2000 528i Orient Blue/ Tan
1981 911SC Targa Wine Red/ Gray
1988 M6 Black/ Lotus
2000 528i Orient Blue/ Tan
1981 911SC Targa Wine Red/ Gray
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Horsetan
When someone makes a move,GAflyer wrote:"Getting rid of" everyone with whom one might disagree is the mindset fueling the chaos in current Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc.
People who's views don't agree with yours aren't wrong- even if you think so- they just disagree with you. As yesterday's voters in Scotland have just so overwhelmingly demonstrated, living in and being part of a representative democracy means abiding by the will of the majority as expressed in elections- even when your side loses.
Just sayin'.
Of which we don't approve,
Who is it that always intervenes?
UN and OAS,
They have their place, I guess,
But first:
SEND THE MARINES!!
