Examined an M6 today... Advice wanted...
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Examined an M6 today... Advice wanted...
I saw an M6 today, and from my hastily-written notes, here's the scoop:
- 191,000 miles on the odometer
- Minor rust on passenger side top corner of front bumper
- Rear wings repainted; now bubbling under the paint near the trim and wheel wells. Paint has flaked off in one spot, leaving a penny-sized blot of surface rust. Front wings have been replaced, and the whole car appears to have been tolerably resprayed up to the pinstripes. It won't win any shows, but it doesn't scare the horses, either.
- Kidney grill has minor dents
- Centre console has two small holes where a mobile 'phone or similar foul gadget was once mounted.
- Tachometer, temp gauge, and fuel gauge all have slightly bent needles, probably from a fat-fingered incompetent repair. Service history indicates "resoldering" to fix an instrument problem.
- Minor damp in the boot, though this *might* simply be the water that ran in when I opened it, as it was raining.
- Somewhat thin on options: No cruise control, no tinted glass, no headlight height control, no headlight wipe/wash. (I thought headlight wipe/wash was standard on the M6... Deleted on the original order?) Leather "sport" seats with manual adjustments. No rear headrests. Standard (not dog-leg) 5spd tranny.
- Aftermarket stereo. Original radio/stereo is missing.
- Owner's manual (though not the folder thing it came in), MOT certificates, assorted invoices are present.
- Original toolkit is complete and in good condition. The first-aid kit is present but I didn't examine it.
- Sunroof a bit wonky -- probably a dirty switch.
- Air conditioning needs a recharge, at least.
- No evidence of cam chain having been changed. Full BMWSH up to about 100K, and specialist history thereafter. Most repairs have been relatively minor -- the biggest (that I recall) being replacement of crank seals to fix an oil leak at about 140,000 miles.
- Engine sounds good though a bit clattery (is that normal?), and idles well.
- Car drives well, no rattles, and feels solid. Not quite the suck-your-eyes-down-your-gullet acceleration of the '85 Corvette I used to own, and almost sluggish at low revs. I'd guess low-end torque is rather poor compared to a General Motors V8, and the gearing seemed almost too tall. On the other hand, I didn't get it anywhere near redline, as doing so would have involved dramatically illegal speeds.
- TRX wheels and tires. Ugh.
- Front discs and pads have been replaced recently, as has the driver's side lower control arm bushing.
- All electrical bits, heater, etc., seem to work, though the driver's side rear window is a bit slow.
I can have it for 4000 pounds cash, if I want it. Given the above problems, the need for a cam chain replacement and bodywork (both of which I'm happy to do myself) and the high mileage, I'm not sure whether that's a good deal or not.
I'd appreciate your thoughts on this...
Dave...
- 191,000 miles on the odometer
- Minor rust on passenger side top corner of front bumper
- Rear wings repainted; now bubbling under the paint near the trim and wheel wells. Paint has flaked off in one spot, leaving a penny-sized blot of surface rust. Front wings have been replaced, and the whole car appears to have been tolerably resprayed up to the pinstripes. It won't win any shows, but it doesn't scare the horses, either.
- Kidney grill has minor dents
- Centre console has two small holes where a mobile 'phone or similar foul gadget was once mounted.
- Tachometer, temp gauge, and fuel gauge all have slightly bent needles, probably from a fat-fingered incompetent repair. Service history indicates "resoldering" to fix an instrument problem.
- Minor damp in the boot, though this *might* simply be the water that ran in when I opened it, as it was raining.
- Somewhat thin on options: No cruise control, no tinted glass, no headlight height control, no headlight wipe/wash. (I thought headlight wipe/wash was standard on the M6... Deleted on the original order?) Leather "sport" seats with manual adjustments. No rear headrests. Standard (not dog-leg) 5spd tranny.
- Aftermarket stereo. Original radio/stereo is missing.
- Owner's manual (though not the folder thing it came in), MOT certificates, assorted invoices are present.
- Original toolkit is complete and in good condition. The first-aid kit is present but I didn't examine it.
- Sunroof a bit wonky -- probably a dirty switch.
- Air conditioning needs a recharge, at least.
- No evidence of cam chain having been changed. Full BMWSH up to about 100K, and specialist history thereafter. Most repairs have been relatively minor -- the biggest (that I recall) being replacement of crank seals to fix an oil leak at about 140,000 miles.
- Engine sounds good though a bit clattery (is that normal?), and idles well.
- Car drives well, no rattles, and feels solid. Not quite the suck-your-eyes-down-your-gullet acceleration of the '85 Corvette I used to own, and almost sluggish at low revs. I'd guess low-end torque is rather poor compared to a General Motors V8, and the gearing seemed almost too tall. On the other hand, I didn't get it anywhere near redline, as doing so would have involved dramatically illegal speeds.
- TRX wheels and tires. Ugh.
- Front discs and pads have been replaced recently, as has the driver's side lower control arm bushing.
- All electrical bits, heater, etc., seem to work, though the driver's side rear window is a bit slow.
I can have it for 4000 pounds cash, if I want it. Given the above problems, the need for a cam chain replacement and bodywork (both of which I'm happy to do myself) and the high mileage, I'm not sure whether that's a good deal or not.
I'd appreciate your thoughts on this...
Dave...
Re: Examined an M6 today... Advice wanted...
Not necessarily a problem in itself. There is at least one documented UK-spec M635CSi "Highline" which has done about 250,000 milesDave wrote:I saw an M6 today, and from my hastily-written notes, here's the scoop:
- 191,000 miles on the odometer
Easy enough, if costly, to get a replacement section from a BMW parts specialist. What may not be so easy is getting the entire front bumper off and then dismantling it into its component parts. Fixing screws, nuts and bolts are all likely to have rusted or seized.- Minor rust on passenger side top corner of front bumper
You will need to budget for work on the affected sections. Best catch it now before it spreads.- Rear wings repainted; now bubbling under the paint near the trim and wheel wells. Paint has flaked off in one spot, leaving a penny-sized blot of surface rust. Front wings have been replaced, and the whole car appears to have been tolerably resprayed up to the pinstripes. It won't win any shows, but it doesn't scare the horses, either.
A pair of kidneys is about 50 quid.- Kidney grill has minor dents
This is not exactly going to affect the car's performance, but I'm sure you can get hold of plastic "filler" if you're so inclined.- Centre console has two small holes where a mobile 'phone or similar foul gadget was once mounted.
...bent needles easily done. I sustained one on my 1983 635CSi speedo (other needles unaffected). If you want to be really cynical, you may want to see it as a symptom of someone trying to "clock" the car.- Tachometer, temp gauge, and fuel gauge all have slightly bent needles, probably from a fat-fingered incompetent repair. Service history indicates "resoldering" to fix an instrument problem.
The rubber seal round the perimeter of the boot opening has most likely gone. Get a new one. Also check the condition of the metal underneath the current seal. If you're really unlucky, it will have corroded away, and you will need skilled metalwork to restore it.- Minor damp in the boot, though this *might* simply be the water that ran in when I opened it, as it was raining.
Headlight wash/wipe wasn't necessarily standard; it was an option on my basic 635CSi. It's entirely possible that the system may have been fitted originally, and then removed when it ceased working. The giveaway will be the black plastic "rest" blocks which you may find on the headlamp chrome ring surrounds, and corresponding spaces on the grille sections where the wiper drive arms protruded from. If these are present, then your car most probably had the system installed when new.- Somewhat thin on options: No cruise control, no tinted glass, no headlight height control, no headlight wipe/wash. (I thought headlight wipe/wash was standard on the M6... Deleted on the original order?)
Sport seats were standard on the M635CSi. Better to have manual adjustment - no electrics to go wrong. Lack of rear headrests mean you have clearer rearward vision.Leather "sport" seats with manual adjustments. No rear headrests.
Overdrive manual ever so slightly easier on the fuel consumption.Standard (not dog-leg) 5spd tranny.
Not a problem. The mid-80s Pioneer stereo in my 635CSi was also an aftermarket fitting.- Aftermarket stereo. Original radio/stereo is missing.
Original owner's handbooks are no longer in print. They're feckin' difficult to get your hands on, particularly for the M635CSi.- Owner's manual (though not the folder thing it came in), MOT certificates, assorted invoices are present.
Complete toolkit? Good. First aid kit likely to be of limited medical use now if it's the original one!- Original toolkit is complete and in good condition. The first-aid kit is present but I didn't examine it.
Ah, "wonky" in movement, because there's an alignment problem? Or "wonky" because the power to the sunroof motor is intermittent?- Sunroof a bit wonky -- probably a dirty switch.
I've got air-con, but it's not important to me.- Air conditioning needs a recharge, at least.
Oh dear. Timing chain MUST be done every 100,000 miles or so. It may have been done at some point, otherwise there'd have been bent valves long ago! But when?- No evidence of cam chain having been changed. Full BMWSH up to about 100K, and specialist history thereafter. Most repairs have been relatively minor -- the biggest (that I recall) being replacement of crank seals to fix an oil leak at about 140,000 miles.
Clattery. Without listening to a recording of the engine, difficult to say. I'd get the cams, tappets and rockers checked. They may need adjustment. If you still get the clatter after adjustment has been done, that suggests worn rockers/ tappets or, worse still, fecked cams.- Engine sounds good though a bit clattery (is that normal?), and idles well.
Sounds like some tuning is needed..... Alternatively, some ECU remapping....- Car drives well, no rattles, and feels solid. Not quite the suck-your-eyes-down-your-gullet acceleration of the '85 Corvette I used to own, and almost sluggish at low revs. I'd guess low-end torque is rather poor compared to a General Motors V8, and the gearing seemed almost too tall. On the other hand, I didn't get it anywhere near redline, as doing so would have involved dramatically illegal speeds.
Agreed.- TRX wheels and tires. Ugh.
...and does the steering shake or vibrate between 50-60mph, or does it shake / vibrate when braking from 60mph down to 50mph?- Front discs and pads have been replaced recently, as has the driver's side lower control arm bushing.
Slow window due to lack of use OR the glass may be misaligned.- All electrical bits, heater, etc., seem to work, though the driver's side rear window is a bit slow.
If you're absolutely desperate to acquire this M635CSi, offer the seller ?2700 at most, then walk away when he refuses your offer. The doubts about the engine's actual condition, plus the bodywork that you will need to do will account for at least ?1300.....I can have it for 4000 pounds cash, if I want it. Given the above problems, the need for a cam chain replacement and bodywork (both of which I'm happy to do myself) and the high mileage, I'm not sure whether that's a good deal or not.
You've got 'em, so!I'd appreciate your thoughts on this...
A pity you didn't see fit to bring a digital camera with you, so we can ALL have a look!
You have omitted to say what year the car is.
M6 in Yorkshire
I saw this exact same car as a private sale back in early September; it was advertised at 6k and I still walked when, after explaining the bodywork and timing chain issue to the then owner, he slashed his price to 3k there and then.
In fairness to your description, most headlight wash/wipes don't work, nearly all headlamp adjusts don't work, few early 6'ers had rear headrests, an M6 doesn't need cruise, the sports seats are almost as good as recaro's (which are like hens teeth) and few cars still have the original stereo.
That said, the overiding concern with all 6'ers is bodywork, and with M635's, the timing chain. This car unfortunately has concerns with both and even if completely sorted (with new wheels as well) might be worth 6 or 7k (given the nearly 200k on the clock).
Deduct 2.5k for the chain, 1k for bodywork and another 1k for wheels, tyres and 'fettling' and you're left with a figure of perhaps 2 to 2.5k, which is part of the reason I walked at 3k; the other part is I knew of the car I eventually bought and at 6k with few problems it seemed a bargain in comparison.
If you're a good mechanic and could do the chain yourself you might consider haggling the 4k down a little, but if you had to shop out all the work it might not seem such a bargain.
I think there are very good M635's out there at around the 6 to 7k mark which might prove to be a better buy.
Just my 10 pence worth.
Sharkfan
In fairness to your description, most headlight wash/wipes don't work, nearly all headlamp adjusts don't work, few early 6'ers had rear headrests, an M6 doesn't need cruise, the sports seats are almost as good as recaro's (which are like hens teeth) and few cars still have the original stereo.
That said, the overiding concern with all 6'ers is bodywork, and with M635's, the timing chain. This car unfortunately has concerns with both and even if completely sorted (with new wheels as well) might be worth 6 or 7k (given the nearly 200k on the clock).
Deduct 2.5k for the chain, 1k for bodywork and another 1k for wheels, tyres and 'fettling' and you're left with a figure of perhaps 2 to 2.5k, which is part of the reason I walked at 3k; the other part is I knew of the car I eventually bought and at 6k with few problems it seemed a bargain in comparison.
If you're a good mechanic and could do the chain yourself you might consider haggling the 4k down a little, but if you had to shop out all the work it might not seem such a bargain.
I think there are very good M635's out there at around the 6 to 7k mark which might prove to be a better buy.
Just my 10 pence worth.
Sharkfan
Re: Examined an M6 today... Advice wanted...
Not the end of the world, but getting to the stage where an engine rebuild is likely to be needed sooner or laterDave wrote:I saw an M6 today, and from my hastily-written notes, here's the scoop:
- 191,000 miles on the odometer
...
All of this can be expensive to fix. Don't often see rust or flaking paint in the rear wings other than round the arches or wheelwells I'd be thinking about repaired accident damage?Dave wrote: - Minor rust on passenger side top corner of front bumper
- Rear wings repainted; now bubbling under the paint near the trim and wheel wells. Paint has flaked off in one spot, leaving a penny-sized blot of surface rust. Front wings have been replaced, and the whole car appears to have been tolerably resprayed up to the pinstripes. It won't win any shows, but it doesn't scare the horses, either.
...
The car is up to 20 years old. These should be relatively easy and cheap to repair with s/h partsDave wrote: - Kidney grill has minor dents
- Centre console has two small holes where a mobile 'phone or similar foul gadget was once mounted.
- Tachometer, temp gauge, and fuel gauge all have slightly bent needles, probably from a fat-fingered incompetent repair. Service history indicates "resoldering" to fix an instrument problem.
...
Rear light gaskets? - ?30 ish per side or more evidence of accident damage?Dave wrote: - Minor damp in the boot, though this *might* simply be the water that ran in when I opened it, as it was raining.
...
Makes it lighter and cheaper to fix as well. Headlamp wash/wipe may well have been removed because it never works.Dave wrote: - Somewhat thin on options: No cruise control, no tinted glass, no headlight height control, no headlight wipe/wash. (I thought headlight wipe/wash was standard on the M6... Deleted on the original order?) Leather "sport" seats with manual adjustments. No rear headrests.
...
Dogleg transmission not fitted to M635, I don't think. The rest is about what you'd expect for a 20 year old 190000 mile car. Don't expect to get away with an aircon regas - it's likey to need conversion to modern refrigerant as well as leaks fixed.Dave wrote: Standard (not dog-leg) 5spd tranny.
- Aftermarket stereo. Original radio/stereo is missing.
- Owner's manual (though not the folder thing it came in), MOT certificates, assorted invoices are present.
- Original toolkit is complete and in good condition. The first-aid kit is present but I didn't examine it.
- Sunroof a bit wonky -- probably a dirty switch.
- Air conditioning needs a recharge, at least.
...
Assume chain not done, but at 190000 miles, I don't know that I'd be bothering to get it done. Engine shouldn't be clattery - can be a wee bit noisy at start up but that should settle in a few seconds. Is it timing chain rattle?Dave wrote: - No evidence of cam chain having been changed. Full BMWSH up to about 100K, and specialist history thereafter. Most repairs have been relatively minor -- the biggest (that I recall) being replacement of crank seals to fix an oil leak at about 140,000 miles.
- Engine sounds good though a bit clattery (is that normal?), and idles well.
...
TRXs have only one saving grace - they are original - budget on ?800 to replace them with a decent set of 17" wheels and good tyres or you could spend the ?800 on four new TRXs?Dave wrote: - Car drives well, no rattles, and feels solid. Not quite the suck-your-eyes-down-your-gullet acceleration of the '85 Corvette I used to own, and almost sluggish at low revs. I'd guess low-end torque is rather poor compared to a General Motors V8, and the gearing seemed almost too tall. On the other hand, I didn't get it anywhere near redline, as doing so would have involved dramatically illegal speeds.
- TRX wheels and tires. Ugh.
- Front discs and pads have been replaced recently, as has the driver's side lower control arm bushing.
- All electrical bits, heater, etc., seem to work, though the driver's side rear window is a bit slow.
...
?4000 is at the cheap end of the scale for an M635. I'd expect a car at this price to need some significant work sooner rather than later, probably wings, sills etc.. It seems as though this one has had this work done, but is getting a bit long in the tooth mechanically. An engine rebuild is going to cost ?3000 or so at least. That having been said 250000 miles plus is far from unknown with the chain done.Dave wrote: I can have it for 4000 pounds cash, if I want it. Given the above problems, the need for a cam chain replacement and bodywork (both of which I'm happy to do myself) and the high mileage, I'm not sure whether that's a good deal or not.
I'd appreciate your thoughts on this...
Dave...
It's difficult to say without seeing it, but if it's structurally sound and it's up and running, MOT and taxed, it doesn't sound too far away to me - not "Bite his arm off", but certainly there or thereabouts.
I'd probably pay ?2500 for ANY non damaged genuine RHD M635 with a running engine so it's got to be worth a look, particularly if you can talk the price down. Pound notes waved in front of noses works wonders at this time of year.
Let us know how you get on and if you buy it, please consider registering it on http://www.m635.co.uk
Re: Examined an M6 today... Advice wanted...
horsetan wrote: If you're absolutely desperate to acquire this M635CSi, offer the seller ?2700 at most,
You could probably profitably break it for spares at that price.
Re: Examined an M6 today... Advice wanted...
The original system ran on R-12. If the system was converted to run on the modern-day R-134a refrigerant, particularly if BMW themselves did the work, there should be a blue sticker on your offside inner wing, next to the suspension strut tower.m3cecotto wrote:....Don't expect to get away with an aircon regas - it's likey to need conversion to modern refrigerant as well as leaks fixed.
Oh dear, this exchange is beginning to look like what happened to the discussion on the 633CSi TWR Hallmark on another Forum not so long ago.... Someone also made the comment "This is so sad....", didn't they
Last edited by horsetan on Sat Jan 08, 2005 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Examined an M6 today... Advice wanted...
Exactly.m3cecotto wrote:horsetan wrote: If you're absolutely desperate to acquire this M635CSi, offer the seller ?2700 at most,
You could probably profitably break it for spares at that price.
Re: Examined an M6 today... Advice wanted...
It is the same! When I started my original post, there were no replies. By the time I posted it, both you and "Sharkfan" had beaten me to it.horsetan wrote: Oh dear, this exchange is beginning to look like what happened to the discussion on the 633CSi TWR Hallmark on another Forum not so long ago.... Someone also made the comment "This is so sad....", didn't they
We should set up a rota system.
Re: Examined an M6 today... Advice wanted...
Right, someone draw up a table on MS Excel....m3cecotto wrote:....We should set up a rota system.
Re: Examined an M6 today... Advice wanted...
Dave, I've sent you a PM about another M635CSi you might want to come down and see...Dave wrote:I saw an M6 today...
to put that car in perspective i saw a LHD M635csi with a recaro cloth interior go under the hammer at a Bonhams auction at Olympia for ?2400. The car had 100,000 Kilometers on the clock and had no rust visable anywhere and i got under the car with a torch. The bodywork and car looked a bit tatty in that the car looked like it had been scratched a bit by sponges going over a dirty car so it was covered in swirl marks and had never had a polish ever, but was a clean M635 for peanuts. I would not pay more than ?3k based on your description. The LHD car had no eveidents of being repaired anywhere.
With E24's bodywork and underbody has to be rust free as this can cost pounds. With M6 this needs to be sorted along with an engine that is sound as this can also cost pounds too. Everything else is fixable.
James
With E24's bodywork and underbody has to be rust free as this can cost pounds. With M6 this needs to be sorted along with an engine that is sound as this can also cost pounds too. Everything else is fixable.
James