Hydro brake mystery

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Re: Hydro brake mystery

Post by ZesCoupe »

Could visit some family and friends while over there :D

Drive down and see Brucey - but I don't know whether he is up for visitors work. Could be a full-time job LoL
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

Post by Brucey »

hey Martyn, that was good work with the PAS rebuild; shame it took so many goes to get a good pump.

Philip, from your description it sounds like the system is losing pressure from the accumulator more quickly than normal. This is almost certainly leaking past one of the valves in the system. Normally the system leaks pressure from the accumulator over several days/weeks, not overnight. Possibilities include corrosion when the car has been standing, or crud in the oil. If the leak is bad enough then the system will cycle every few minutes whilst driving. Extra torque on the pump could arise if the pressure relief valve in the pump is faulty, and this perhaps could set the belt slipping.

If you can make the noise when the car is stationary, then you should smell a slipping belt.

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Re: Hydro brake mystery

Post by plip1953 »

Brucey wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:01 pm hey Martyn, that was good work with the PAS rebuild; shame it took so many goes to get a good pump.

Philip, from your description it sounds like the system is losing pressure from the accumulator more quickly than normal. This is almost certainly leaking past one of the valves in the system. Normally the system leaks pressure from the accumulator over several days/weeks, not overnight. Possibilities include corrosion when the car has been standing, or crud in the oil. If the leak is bad enough then the system will cycle every few minutes whilst driving. Extra torque on the pump could arise if the pressure relief valve in the pump is faulty, and this perhaps could set the belt slipping.

If you can make the noise when the car is stationary, then you should smell a slipping belt.





cheers
Thanks. I think you've most likely hit the nail on the head. This afternoon I set the engine running and the reservoir level fell rapidly to below the level of the mesh. That was around 3.30pm. I've just been to check the level (now 7pm) and the level had restored itself to just below the reservoir rim!

Does this mean a new accumulator is going to be needed? I think I read somewhere that they're not serviceable?

I did try to to recreate the screeching (assumed to be belt slipping) noise, but engine idling, pumping the brakes and turning the steering wheel lock to lock simultaneously didn't trigger it - which seems a bit strange?

Anyway the car is now going to be off the road for a spell while I do some underside titivating, so I won't be able to report on progress for a while.

Phil

PS: please have a look at this short video and tell me if this belt is too loose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otMOfj3V5Z8
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

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After taking a longer drive today and at some much higher speeds 8) all was OK so I removed the pump to attempt a more permanent solution. This short clip shows the state of the retaining pins I referred to in the previous post. On a supposedly new pump - beggars belief :roll:
https://youtu.be/uzPEUMtNPjA

Thanks for the comment Brucey although we're not there yet. Did some investigation of the pumps this evening and will make a start tomorrow on a well engineered permanent solution.
Last edited by ZesCoupe on Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

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Does this mean a new accumulator is going to be needed? I think I read somewhere that they're not serviceable?
I don't think the accumulator itself would cause the leakdown, more likely the valves in the regulator. You might be able to flush any crud out. New one is expensive! For some reason realoem calls it a "voltage" regulator - forget the voltage, it regulates the fluid flow.
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I did try to to recreate the screeching (assumed to be belt slipping) noise, but engine idling, pumping the brakes and turning the steering wheel lock to lock simultaneously didn't trigger it - which seems a bit strange?
If the noise was occurring at highway speeds then the rpm would have been much higher - 2500-3000?
PS: please have a look at this short video and tell me if this belt is too loose.
Looks a little slack to me. Bentley recommends turning the 19mm adjuster nut to 8-8.5 Nm and then tightening the locknut. It's all a bit cramped down there for torque wrenches so I usually tighten it so I have about 10-15mm movement in the middle of the belt.
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

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ZesCoupe wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:09 pm
Does this mean a new accumulator is going to be needed? I think I read somewhere that they're not serviceable?
I don't think the accumulator itself would cause the leakdown, more likely the valves in the regulator. You might be able to flush any crud out. New one is expensive! For some reason realoem calls it a "voltage" regulator - forget the voltage, it regulates the fluid flow.
I did try to to recreate the screeching (assumed to be belt slipping) noise, but engine idling, pumping the brakes and turning the steering wheel lock to lock simultaneously didn't trigger it - which seems a bit strange?
If the noise was occurring at highway speeds then the rpm would have been much higher - 2500-3000?
PS: please have a look at this short video and tell me if this belt is too loose.
Looks a little slack to me. Bentley recommends turning the 19mm adjuster nut to 8-8.5 Nm and then tightening the locknut. It's all a bit cramped down there for torque wrenches so I usually tighten it so I have about 10-15mm movement in the middle of the belt.
Helpful, thanks.

Yes, I should have typed "regulator". Strange that RealOEM refer to it as a voltage regulator.

Yes, 2000-2500 rpm (I was taking things very steady because of the issue). My thinking here was that if a pressure rebuild was being demanded when running at higher revs it would be let rather than more likely to lead to slip? Asthe the 300miles round trip on Sunday unfolded the occurrence of the screeching noise changed somewhat. I was around 140 before any noise at all. Then there were a few short episodes in varying circumstances, including several at idle/crawling speed before parking up for several hours. Then, on the return leg, nothing initially, then a few short bursts and momentarily losses of steering assistance, then a 60-70 miles motorway run with no noise, and after a further brief stop the noise settled into a much more predictable pattern of 5 secs bursts every few miles. Very strange!

Any I found a used regulator on Ebay which wasn't too expensive so in due course will give that a try to see what happens.

And I've tightened the belt up slightly.

Phil
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

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Pity you already ordered from eBay. I have one I purchased for very little money from a salvage company here in NL. It was swapped in during my search for a solution. It was in good condition with both pressure sensors still installed. Cheapest new I found was a parts supplier in Germany where I got one for €430 + shipping. It didn't help (obviously) so I sent it back and got a refund.
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

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ZesCoupe wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:45 am Pity you already ordered from eBay. I have one I purchased for very little money from a salvage company here in NL. It was swapped in during my search for a solution. It was in good condition with both pressure sensors still installed. Cheapest new I found was a parts supplier in Germany where I got one for €430 + shipping. It didn't help (obviously) so I sent it back and got a refund.
Ah that's a pity! The one I've ordered was only £120 posted, but might need the pressure sensors swapped over. It was apparently off a 1986 535i and I'm pretty sure will be the same part. I guess you'll be keeping yours anyway so I'll know where to come knocking if the one I've ordered is deficient in any way. :D

As a slight aside, do you know if a pump off an E34 535 would be a potential straight replacement for my current one. It's a different part no but I note that it is rated to 130bar which I think it correct for the E24?
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

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plip1953 wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:12 am As a slight aside, do you know if a pump off an E34 535 would be a potential straight replacement for my current one. It's a different part no but I note that it is rated to 130bar which I think it correct for the E24?

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/select ... series=E24

Put your chassis# in here and it will give you the correct pump.
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

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As a slight aside, do you know if a pump off an E34 535 would be a potential straight replacement for my current one. It's a different part no but I note that it is rated to 130bar which I think it correct for the E24?
There are two part numbers on the tag but I can't read the one in the middle. The one at the top, 1131239, shows up in realoem as being superseded by a pump for an E32 735i but has no related models itself. Although if you search for an E32 735i from '89 (date on the tag) it shows a completely different one. For an E34 535i from '89 there is also another pump listed. Difficult to pin down exactly which pumps were used where.

I would say if it's physically the same, the banjo fittings are identical and the (your!) pulley lines up correctly, then you should be OK. Early E24's had 110bar pumps, later ones 130, the Meyle I got hold of was 120. You'll also have to fit your own support brackets, so while you've got three bolts undone remove the last one and have a look inside for any serious wear.
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

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ron wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:38 am
plip1953 wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:12 am As a slight aside, do you know if a pump off an E34 535 would be a potential straight replacement for my current one. It's a different part no but I note that it is rated to 130bar which I think it correct for the E24?

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/select ... series=E24

Put your chassis# in here and it will give you the correct pump.
I know what the correct part no is, but have had this pump lying around for a while from an E34 535 engine I dismantled (for fun!) about 10 years ago.

Phil
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

Post by ron »

plip1953 wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:44 pm I know what the correct part no is...
That will tell you the pressure rating you require. They vary from 100-130 bar.
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

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ron wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:16 pm
plip1953 wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:44 pm I know what the correct part no is...
That will tell you the pressure rating you require. They vary from 100-130 bar.
Apparently it’s 130bar for my car which is what made me wonder if the E34 unit (also rated 130bar) would be suitable.

I’ll look into the bracketry side of things a bit more when I get a few mins under the car.
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

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Phil,

I was just looking through that document of mine from earlier in the post and remembered this paragraph.
4.2.3: Leak test DS regulator and brake unit
a) If the accumulator pressure on the gauge display drops
by more than 5 bar within 5 minutes, the reverse flow
line must be open at the DS regulator. If the return line
leaks oil, the DS-controller is leaking and must be
replaced.
b) If there is no leakage oil on the return line of the
DS controller and the accumulator pressure still drops
off, the brake booster has an internal leak, and must be
replaced.
Of course this is measured with a pressure gauge attached but does seem to show that your leakdown problem could be related to the regulator
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

Post by Brucey »

yep, the thing is to try and find out where the oil is leaking from, to get back to the reservior. As per above, it could either be leaking past a valve in the regulator unit or it could be leaking through the servo itself and thence back to the reservoir, each via its own return line.

Disconnecting each of the relevant return hoses (be sure that they are the return hoses!) at some convenient location, once the system is at full pressure, ought to indicate what is going on.

Because it is easily disconnected, and it is high up (so won't drain the reservoir) the return line from the servo is probably the one to go for first, at the servo itself.

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Re: Hydro brake mystery

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So just to be absolutely clear, by "servo" you mean the relevant (rear section) part of what I'd probably describe as the brake master cylinder assembly (as totally distinct from the regulator/accumulator assembly? In the H-31 descriptive article (very helpful btw) it would be item 3 in the first shcematic - labelled "hydraulic booster" - and where the left hand, furthest forward, line is the return line?

Another thought - when the system is running/fully pressurised, and therefore the fluid level in the reservoir has dropped down a couple of inches, where is that extra fluid actually residing? I've kind of assumed that it must be in the "bomb" (as it compresses the gas below the diaphragm - is that what happens?). So does that mean that the line between regulator/bomb and the servo is pressurised at all times ie as long as there is positive pressure remaining in the bomb? The alternative (in my head) would be that the line to the servo only receives pressure if a valve in the regulator opens in response to, say, an electrical signal indicating that the brake pedal has been pressed. Or maybe I'm over complicating matters..... lol
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

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plip1953 wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:31 am So just to be absolutely clear, by "servo" you mean the relevant (rear section) part of what I'd probably describe as the brake master cylinder assembly (as totally distinct from the regulator/accumulator assembly? In the H-31 descriptive article (very helpful btw) it would be item 3 in the first shcematic - labelled "hydraulic booster" - and where the left hand, furthest forward, line is the return line?

Another thought - when the system is running/fully pressurised, and therefore the fluid level in the reservoir has dropped down a couple of inches, where is that extra fluid actually residing? I've kind of assumed that it must be in the "bomb" (as it compresses the gas below the diaphragm - is that what happens?). So does that mean that the line between regulator/bomb and the servo is pressurised at all times ie as long as there is positive pressure remaining in the bomb?
Yep! Which is why when the "bomb" goes south you have no brake assistance - hard pedal.
The alternative (in my head) would be that the line to the servo only receives pressure if a valve in the regulator opens in response to, say, an electrical signal indicating that the brake pedal has been pressed. Or maybe I'm over complicating matters..... lol
No - no electronics in the regulator whatsoever (except for the sensors which are passive)
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

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Hello All,

Just a update to say that I updated the H31 Hydraulic Brake System document with some changes, improvements, and in response to the comment from Brucey
BTW I like your pdf very much but it is perhaps worth adding a comments/footnotes section; one comment I would make is that the brake servo is relatively easy to strip apart and there are only a few wearing parts inside; you can get the servos rebuilt via this very forum.
...a Notes section. There is also a version table. I updated the file in the earlier post but have added it here also.
H31 Hydraulic Brake System.pdf
(1.02 MiB) Downloaded 292 times
One addition I made was of an "Engine off state" which reflects the situation when standing that the accumulator could possibly discharge.

I didn't actually add the comment from Brucey in the notes but this should be possible for other board members who might need to correct or update it. This is PDF for ease of usage but I can supply it in original document type Pages (Mac) or even a Word (MS) export.

@Brucey - Let me know
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

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Getting back to my H31 woes. After the provisional repair turned out so well I thought it should probably be engineered a little better than a couple of bits of foil to stabilise the pins. You will have seen the movement of the pins in the video in the earlier post. The hole size was getting on for 6mm whereas the pins themselves are 5mm. I was initially planning to combine the good parts to make one good pump but after sleeping on it I reasoned that as the front part of the Meyle pump was already shot I could do some more machining to improve the situation. The easiest option was to increase the hole size to 6mm and make some new pins to fit. So the body, which is a little difficult to get hold of in a vice or machine clamp, needed a sub-engineering project to solve that. A piece of 12mm threaded steel rod and a couple of machined aluminium rings to centre it did the trick and it could then be mounted in the machine clamp.

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Set up on the mini mill to machine the holes to 6mm with a maximum depth of 5mm. This was a little difficult as the wear on the holes was not particularly concentric but with some measurements relative to the main construction holes It seemed to be correct.

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A piece of machine steel from my scrap box and some work on the lathe gave me these pins. Short 6mm dia. section to fit in the holes and the rest 5mm as with the originals. Then there is no need to drill the cage and cover to take 6mm.


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When the cage and rotor were reinstalled it seemed pretty concentric and really secure so I added the butterfly cover and sealed it all back up. Fitted it back in the car and refilled and manually bled the system. When I started the engine it was initially surprisingly very noisy but it quietened down so I took it for a drive hoping it would smooth itself out [-o<. Brakes were good but the P/S wasn't and the pump became noisy and the P/S juddered when turning at low revs. That wasn't going to cut it :roll:.

By the time I got home I was so pissed off with the whole saga :-& that I phoned the local BMW parts dept. and told him to order me a new (exchange) pump. Last time I asked, a couple of months ago, there was a delivery time of 10 working days. This time (it was Friday afternoon) he said it would probably be Wednesday and that he'd do me a really good deal on the price. So now I'm just waiting on Wednesday.

I have no idea why the provisional fix worked but the solid repair didn't :-k.
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

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How frustrating! Two steps forward and one back, but I'm sure you'll get there in the end :-)
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

Post by Brucey »

FWIW it sounds like there was some problem with the pressure build-up. For example an iffy pressure relief valve or a basic lack of pressure; the 'cogging action' may be due to the way the system works or it could be because of poor vane action.

It seems to me that drilling the baseplate to 6mm will have raised micro-burrs on the surface and unless dealt with, these burrs may cause the ring not to sit down and there to be a leak path past the ring. Similarly if the shoulders on the pins extend too high up they may cause the ring to sit up slightly. IIRC the assembly is toleranced so that the remaining 'squash' in the main body seal and the butterfly seal duke it out to push the ring and cover down hard enough to make a decent seal. This will only work if the surfaces of all these parts are perfectly flat, i.e. precision machined or lapped flat.

The pump fights leaks past the vanes anyway; the slightest gap either side of the ring will scupper the pump action. So will sticky vanes; any scuffing on the side of the vanes can make them not move freely in the radial direction and this will make for a poor pumping action. If there is a space either side of the ring then the vanes can move around and start to wear in a peculiar fashion.

It must be very frustrating but I think you are on the home straight. FWIW I'm not sure it really matters that much if the pins are a slack fit; if I understand it correctly, the ring ought not move around in normal service because the loads on it are (or should be) balanced and the part should be well-clamped too.

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Re: Hydro brake mystery

Post by ZesCoupe »

@Brucey,
I think that all you said is probably correct and my approach took it all into account. I think the most probable culprit is the vane action. Anyway a new one will arrive on Wednesday.

Did you take a look at the document update? Would you like to add or correct anything to it yourself? if so I could (as I said) make the source doc available. AFAIC it should be in the public domain for anyone even if I'm not around anymore. Is there some way to achieve this on a higher level on the forum?

@Phil,
Maybe worth a re-read to assess your own problems
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Re: Hydro brake mystery

Post by sansouci »

Great document. The only two suggested changes are to add a date column to the version control so that each addition is specifically dated and under maintenance, a brief comment on appropriate hydraulic fluid.
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