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Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

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Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by Boggie » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:48 am

OK, I spoke too soon on the previous thread. Got up early today to fit the wheels and in-tank pump, ready for the car's first MOT for many years. All was going well until I started the car up for the run to the MOT: I noticed that whilst I have a good solid brake pedal with the engine off, as soon as I start her up the pedal, admittedly under heavy foot pressure, slowly sinks to the floor. I spent a rather frantic half an hour trying to resolve this before having to give up and cancel the MOT. I took the whole week last week to get ready for the MOT, working very late hours most nights, so I am to say the least, a little disappointed not to be on the road in the sunshine today...

Here is what I have done so far:
  • Brand new genuine BMW Master Cylinder.
  • All new BMW steel brake lines throughout.
  • Full set of new custom-made Goodridge hoses.
  • Stripped, cleaned calipers, fitted with new seals.
  • EBC Discs and RedStuff brake pads all round.
  • System flush with premium DOT 5.1 brake fluid.
  • Bled by pressurising reservoir, staring from furthest away.
I have checked all unions for leaks and found none. Why do I have a great pedal with the engine off but with the engine running the pedal sinks under pressure? Really stumped on this one and need your advice/experience please.

Thanks,
Ian
1985 M635CSI
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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by Brucey » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:20 pm

the most likely thing is that (if there is no fluid leak anywhere) the MC is faulty. It happens when the engine is on because the pressure is about four or five times higher in the system.

One thing it isn't likely to be is the servo; IIRC if the servo fails there is soon a direct mechanical connection; if the pedal descends then the MC pistons are moving too.

There is an outside chance that there is air trapped in the ABS system but this should mostly self-bleed out (into the hard lines) after a few excursions to high pressure, leaving you with a spongy pedal, not one that goes to the floor slowly.

IME the MC can be badly made so that the compensation ports (esp to the rear piston) present a knife-edge to the seal, which is then 'nibbled away' and can fail after just a few applications. The tiny bits of rubber that are floating around the system can cause leaks in valves and seals in their own right.

If the MC is bad as I suspect, the pistons are bypassing the fluid at constant pressure and this is betrayed by the fluid level in the reservoir remaining almost constant between the top of the stroke and the bottom of the stroke. If there is air in the system that is being compressed then the fluid level in the reservoir descends as the pedal goes down further.

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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by Boggie » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:36 pm

Thanks Brucey,

That's pretty much what I was thinking too. The MC internal seals must be letting fluid past for the pedal to sink under pressure.

However, I spoke to my local BMW dealer (whom have been supplying all my parts, including the MC) and the technicians there seem to think the culprit may be the pressure accumulator (item 4 on this page). Is that likely? I did not have this issue before the brake refit so I lean towards my work having introduced the issue. I have not touched the accumulator but I have replaced the MC...

Cheers,
Ian
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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by Brucey » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:51 pm

IMHO they are talking bollocks.

For that to happen (without the MC pistons moving) the servo would have to be able to become shorter somehow. It cannot do that; after a few mm of such movement the parts make direct mechanical contact with one another so that in the event of loss of hydro pressure you still have a brake. That is the pedal you feel when there is no servo assistance. With no servo action the pedal should still go to the floor if there is a MC fault, but it will take longer and require way more pedal force.

You may also have a servo/accumulator fault of some kind but IME it cannot produce the symptoms you are seeing. If you have no servo assitance as soon as the engine is turned off that does indicate that you don't have a functional accumulator system, but it cannot make the pedal go to the floor.

As per my previous post check the MC reservoir for black flecks of rubber and check the way the brake fluid level changes as you use the brake; it may tell you something useful.

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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by Boggie » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:55 pm

Thanks Brucey.
I will check when I get back to the car in a couple of days.
Ian
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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by NigelC » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:39 pm

Hi Ian, I was very interested to see that you had almost the same problem with the brakes that I have had.
my car 635csi auto (Dec 1988 build) after total restoration had sinking brake pedal with engine running,servo pushing pedal to floor. New parts much as yours except all my calipers were re-manufactured, all new metal pipes and oem flexipipes. my car bleed easily using pressure bleeder, brake pedal went halfway down to good solid feel with no spongyness. Start engine and it would eventually sink to the floor.I tried vacuum bleeding, pressure bleeding, pedal pressure/release, a short trip on loose ground which activated the abs but each time the fluid came out clear with no bubbles and no improvement in sinking. I also suspected the new master cylinder seals but as I could not make pedal drop from its static position ( servo exhausted) even with excessive pressure I wondered if air could be trapped in the abs unit. I know this does not make good diagnosis as I know that the servo is fine and there was no sponginess indicating air trapped in the system, yet the pedal sinks with the servo running indicating a faulty master cylinder. I researched air trapped in abs units on the internet and the difficulties sometimes removing it.Big dealerships have specialist test gear ( about £4k !) which can cycle the pump and abs valves to purge the air.This got me thinking, so I studied the ETM and traced the circuits.I detached the plug and made a simple switchbox to activate the pump and valves, I then rebleed the brakes using pressure [email protected] 10 psi + pedal pumping.A lot of air came out and now pedal is at top of stroke and servo only takes it down half way. Is master cylinder faulty-I am not certain. Cheers Nigel.

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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by plip1953 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:07 am

NigelC wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:39 pm
Hi Ian, I was very interested to see that you had almost the same problem with the brakes that I have had.
my car 635csi auto (Dec 1988 build) after total restoration had sinking brake pedal with engine running,servo pushing pedal to floor. New parts much as yours except all my calipers were re-manufactured, all new metal pipes and oem flexipipes. my car bleed easily using pressure bleeder, brake pedal went halfway down to good solid feel with no spongyness. Start engine and it would eventually sink to the floor.I tried vacuum bleeding, pressure bleeding, pedal pressure/release, a short trip on loose ground which activated the abs but each time the fluid came out clear with no bubbles and no improvement in sinking. I also suspected the new master cylinder seals but as I could not make pedal drop from its static position ( servo exhausted) even with excessive pressure I wondered if air could be trapped in the abs unit. I know this does not make good diagnosis as I know that the servo is fine and there was no sponginess indicating air trapped in the system, yet the pedal sinks with the servo running indicating a faulty master cylinder. I researched air trapped in abs units on the internet and the difficulties sometimes removing it.Big dealerships have specialist test gear ( about £4k !) which can cycle the pump and abs valves to purge the air.This got me thinking, so I studied the ETM and traced the circuits.I detached the plug and made a simple switchbox to activate the pump and valves, I then rebleed the brakes using pressure [email protected] 10 psi + pedal pumping.A lot of air came out and now pedal is at top of stroke and servo only takes it down half way. Is master cylinder faulty-I am not certain. Cheers Nigel.
Prior to sorting your problem, when you were pressing the brake pedal and is sank to the floor, did the level of the fluid drop in the reservoir. In the OP's case he say is doesn't and that apparently implies that it can't be air in the system (in his particular case).
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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by NigelC » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:41 pm

H Phil, re level in resevoir, no the level did not drop as the pedal was sinking nor was there any visible movement in the
fluid -so you would think there wasn't any air in the system, and it did not feel spongey. After my abs purge it was interesting that the pedal came right up to the top and the brakes felt really good on the road but partial sinking does still
occur. It takes a long time to sink (about 30 secs. ) using a lot of foot pressure + the 4.5 x boost and I do wonder If I am
causing the sinkage with too much effort applied. ( the level in reservoir does not drop and no movement as before but over 30 secs. maybe you wouldn't see it ) I would be very interested to hear if other members have this symptom with all new brake parts. cheers, NigelC

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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by Brucey » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:07 pm

if the fluid is by passing the MC pistons then the fluid level won't go down. But if there is air in the system then it will.

Will you see the fluid level change? Maybe not, not easily. You could

a) make a mark on the side of the reservoir to indicate the level before you start
b) partially empty (or overfill) the reservoir, so that the level change is more easily seen
c) test the level change induced by adding (or removing) a comparable amount of fluid to the reservoir.

IIRC the bore of the MC is ~22mm, the shaft dia is ~14mm and the stroke is about 45mm. If my sums are correct, a full push on the pedal ought to push ~10cc of fluid out of the MC. Thinking about it I don't think the level change will be visible unless the reservoir is overfilled and the fluid level is (say) in the neck of the reservoir.

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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by Boggie » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:52 pm

Hi All,
Apologies for the lack of response but I have been camping with the kids...

Brucey: I will have a look for any signs of shredded rubber flecks in the oil and try to see if I can see any difference in the levels when I push the pedal with the engine running. BMW are saying two things at present:
  • Their technician believes I should try replacing the pressure vessel, valve and seal. However, this is a lot of money to buy and I am not convinced this is the problem; I did not have the issue before replacing all the parts listed above and the pressure vessel etc are untouched.
  • If I want to return the MC for a warranty swap / refund, I have to take the car to BMW who will then check to confirm if this is the issue. However, I somehow have to get the car to them, which with no MOT, Tax or brakes will mean I have to hire a company to ship the car, and if BMW decide that it is not the MC, I have to pay for the test (2h main dealer labour rates = about £300).
This leaves me a bit screwed. I could buy another MC, swap out and bleed the system. If the problem persists I know it is unlikely to be the MC. If the problem clears then I know that the BMW MC is at fault but I still have to prove to BMW that this is the case. Either way I will have bought a second new MC at a cost of around £275 and a couple of hours labour and I am very unlikely to get any refund.

I can't even use the old MC as it has the outlet pipes on the other side to the new BMW MC (and the picture shown in RealOEM) so must have been the wrong MC. I reformed the existing pipes to reach around the other side and connect to the new MC but I don't want to bend them back to test the old MC and then back again to fit the corect MC after the test (for obvious metal fatigue reasons...).

I will talk again to BMW to see if there is a way around this but at this time it looks like I will have to buy another MC just to test and then write off the cost and time, whatever the outcome. The car's previous owner has said he has a second hand pressure vessel and valve so I have asked what he wants for them. I could at least try that first, just to see if the BMW techs guesswork is correct...
NigelC wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:39 pm
I researched air trapped in abs units on the internet and the difficulties sometimes removing it.Big dealerships have specialist test gear ( about £4k !) which can cycle the pump and abs valves to purge the air.This got me thinking, so I studied the ETM and traced the circuits.I detached the plug and made a simple switchbox to activate the pump and valves, I then rebleed the brakes using pressure [email protected] 10 psi + pedal pumping.A lot of air came out and now pedal is at top of stroke and servo only takes it down half way. Is master cylinder faulty-I am not certain.
Nigel: I am very interested in your solution for cycling the ABS pumps, please can you say what wires or pins in the plug you used and what switched where? I would like to try that. However, I am a little concerned about your quote:
NigelC wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:41 pm
After my abs purge it was interesting that the pedal came right up to the top and the brakes felt really good on the road but partial sinking does still occur. It takes a long time to sink (about 30 secs. ) using a lot of foot pressure + the 4.5 x boost and I do wonder If I am
causing the sinkage with too much effort applied.
I have tried a number of cars with ABS and Servo assist yesterday / today, some old and some fairly new. None of them have a sinking pedal with or without the engine running, no matter how hard I push and I am pretty much certain I did not have this issue before the brake system renewal. If the pedal still sinks on yours, albeit rather slowly, then there must still be an issue somewhere...?

Cheers,
Ian
1985 M635CSI
Classic Car Collector & Restorer.

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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by Boggie » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:14 pm

Today's workshop observations:
In the vague (desperate) hope that re-bleeding the system might help, I enlisted the help of my wife and followed the BMW Workshop way:
  • Attach reservoir pressurisation kit at <2bar.
  • Press and hold brake pedal down.
  • Attach bleed pipe/jar and open furthest bleed nipple.
  • Release pedal, pump 12 times and hold down.
  • Close bleed nipple.
  • Move to the next furthest wheel and repeat until all four are done.
Same issue; good pedal with engine off, engine on and pedal goes hard, where you would expect it ( about halfway down) but then sinks slowly to the floor under sustained pressure.

Observations:
  • When I opened the reservoir lid today to start a repeat system bleed, despite all new components and fluid, there were some small black or dark brown bits at the bottom (which I removed with a syringe).
  • With the engine off, no matter how hard you push the pedal (and I have big legs!) the pedal stays where it should be.
  • Each time I start the engine and the brake warning light stays lit until I press the brake pedal.
  • With the engine running, the depressed pedal stops where it should, then after a brief pause, slowly sinks to the floor.
  • The level in the fluid reservoir lowers until the point the pedal goes hard, however the level stays the same from that point on as the pedal sinks to the floor
  • I have checked every union, pipes, hoses and caliper but there are no leaks.
Pressure Accumulator:
After a morning trawling this and other forums, I read that the symptoms above might indicate an issue with the bomb. So I took the top off the power steering reservoir, removed the retaining clip and filter then performed the tests Brucey and others had detailed:
  • Firstly, I noticed that the level in the reservoir was quite low, only about an inch above the top rear facing hose.
  • With the engine off, I asked my wife to pump the brakes. After about 15-20 pumps, the level was about an inch or so from the top.
  • This level held so after a few short while I asked her to start the engine. This resulted in the level dropping to the lower level again.
To me this sounds like the bomb is OK. Am I right? Is there a way to test the regulator / valve assembly or am I barking up the wrong tree? It is very frustrating that after 7 months mechanical restoration this issue is blocking me from going for the MOT (especially as this was precautionary work: there was nothing wrong with the brakes before I started!). I don't know what I should try next so would really appreciate any help.

Thanks,
Ian
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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by NigelC » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:54 pm

Hi Ian, It seems that both our cars are suffering from the same problem although yours seems more severe than mine.
I will get the 'abs pump switch' pin details when I am back in my workshop on Monday and will post.
After I purged the abs unit my pedal is right at top of stroke and does not press down much for a hard pedal - and I
checked that the fluid does not drop at all.( engine off and sevo exhausted after about 22 pumps) -and like you I have a strong right leg! From your description your servo bomb is perfectly ok and does not need changing. It is important to remember that if the bomb or servo were faulty it can only reduce available assistance and the feel of the brake pedal
would be the same as when the engine is off.- ie hard pedal. (I am sorry to say that the bmw tech guys you spoke to do not understand the system) On my MOT test my brake figures were very high and he did not notice the very slow sinkage.I bought my brand new 'oem' ATE master cylinder on e-bay for about £145 and now considering buying a rebuild kit to re-seal it after looking very closely at the port openings for sharp edges as Brucey suggested. I have not seen any
black flecks in the resevoir yet. Luckily my car is driveable but by elimination I can only suspect my master cylinder
and yours with the more extreme symptoms. Incidently last week I had to move a 2008 Merc.suv

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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by NigelC » Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:17 pm

my reply cut off!! I was just saying that last week I had to move a big Merc. SUV 2008 and to my surprise the brake pedal slowly sank to the floor ! Also when I moved a Classic Jaguar XK8 it was much worse!! I advised the owners who said that they were not aware of any issues when driving their cars. -Perhaps I am getting a bit paranoid ! Cheers, NigelC.

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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by Jono B good » Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:21 pm

Subbed to this thread.
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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by plip1953 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:15 pm

From my reading of what you've described it surely points pretty clearly to a leaky MC piston? On the other hand, if this is the case I think I'd also expect the pedal to sink to the floor with the engine off :-?

EDITED TO ADD: Interesting point about the 2008 Merc SUV - I have a 57 plate ML63 and was intrigued enough to pop outside just now and see what mine does pedal-wise. And to my surprise, with the engine running and pressing hard on the brake pedal, it pretty much sinks to the floor! But with the engine off and press the pedal a few times first and the pedal feels really hard and stable. I've never felt I had any kind of issue in normal driving, although having said neither haven't I every been especially impressed by their performance. Now it's got me wondering if I need to change the M/C lol
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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by Boggie » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:10 pm

Thanks chaps,

I guess the only way forward is for me to buy another MC, just to see if the brand new BMW MC is faulty.
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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by Brucey » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:50 pm

one test you could easily do is to make up a short line that just connects the output ports to one another and thus blanks the MC off. If (having been bled) the pedal still sinks then you have your answer about whether the MC is faulty or not.

The accumulator seems to be working fine, from your description.

If you removed debris from the MC it would be useful to keep it, examine it and to find out what it is made of.

The worst knife edge on a port I have seen in these MCs is in the rear compensation port, where it intercepts the MC piston bore at an acute angle. This has been left 'quite sharp' or 'very sharp' in every MC I have examined.

If the pedal travel is short (eg sticky calipers) then the system builds pressure when the MC seal is still partially over the compensation port and the seal is then damaged when it moves.

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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by Boggie » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:28 pm

Brucey wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:50 pm
one test you could easily do is to make up a short line that just connects the output ports to one another and thus blanks the MC off. If (having been bled) the pedal still sinks then you have your answer about whether the MC is faulty or not.

The accumulator seems to be working fine, from your description.

If you removed debris from the MC it would be useful to keep it, examine it and to find out what it is made of.

The worst knife edge on a port I have seen in these MCs is in the rear compensation port, where it intercepts the MC piston bore at an acute angle. This has been left 'quite sharp' or 'very sharp' in every MC I have examined.

If the pedal travel is short (eg sticky calipers) then the system builds pressure when the MC seal is still partially over the compensation port and the seal is then damaged when it moves.

cheers
Now that is not a bad idea. Thanks Brucey! I might modify it slightly for ease of bleeding: I have a couple of spare rear calipers from the 635 rear subframe. I have two short lengths of the old steel brake pipes (from ABS to rear connector unions) and hoses. I will hook the lot together, bleed, stick a block of wood in each caliper, start the engine and stand on the brake pedal to see what happens.

I don't expect any difference as I have no visible leaks and, like you and the guys above, I strongly suspect the new BMW MC is at fault. Assuming I can prove to myself that the BMW MC DOA, my problems will then be:
  • How do I convince BMW that their MC is at fault?
  • Should I risk buying another genuine BMW MC or get a copy*?
* Anyone have recommendations on a good aftermarket MC please?
I am a little cautious of using ATE based upon Nigel's experience but to be fair it came via eBay so may not really be ATE. A few months back Textar were warning about fake brake components on eBay and I have myself been caught out buying NGK spark plugs and a genuine fuel pump for another restoration, all of which failed and turned out to be fakes...

Cheers,
Ian
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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by NigelC » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:01 pm

Hi Ian, I know what you mean by e-bay purchases! but it is a genuine ATE master cylinder which is the same as the one fitted from new by the factory, carries the same part number and came from a brake specialist company in Germany.
I don't think it is fake but I do think it is faulty! cheers Nigel.

I did spend some time tonight composing an article about my abs controller with details but when I pressed submit it seems to have disappeared !! Don't you just love computers!

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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by Brucey » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:39 pm

to convince BMW about the MC being faulty, you just need to video the test, surely?

BTW there is no need for calipers and hoses; just a short length of copper. You can bleed it out at the unions; nothing could be simpler and there is no chance of anything weird happening in the calipers etc so there is absolutely no doubt about the results of the test.

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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by Jono B good » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:31 am

NigelC wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:01 pm
Hi Ian, I know what you mean by e-bay purchases! but it is a genuine ATE master cylinder which is the same as the one fitted from new by the factory, carries the same part number and came from a brake specialist company in Germany.
I don't think it is fake but I do think it is faulty! cheers Nigel.

I did spend some time tonight composing an article about my abs controller with details but when I pressed submit it seems to have disappeared !! Don't you just love computers!
Hey if the criminals can forge iphones and nike shoes etc etc. They can and will forge your MC, just sayin.
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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by Boggie » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:00 am

NigelC wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:01 pm
Hi Ian, I know what you mean by e-bay purchases! but it is a genuine ATE master cylinder which is the same as the one fitted from new by the factory, carries the same part number and came from a brake specialist company in Germany.
I don't think it is fake but I do think it is faulty! cheers Nigel.

I did spend some time tonight composing an article about my abs controller with details but when I pressed submit it seems to have disappeared !! Don't you just love computers!
Sounds less likely it is a fake but the spark plugs I bought were incredibly good fakes. Almost indestinguisable from the genuine items. It was only when I bought a new set from a local motor spares shop that I spotted the font of the part number stamped on the side was different. I sent one to NGK and they confirmed it to be a fake.

Additionally we bought a 'Genuine' Apple charger form an internet computer shop that gave my wife an electric shock. That turned out to be a fake that was so convincing only comparing its weight with that of the Apple charger gave it away.

After these and other incidents I started looking into the problem. It seems that the Chinese are mostly to blame for the influx of counterfeit products and they fake anything, from cheap Bic pens to high end mobile phones. It is getting tough to find genuine memory cards too these days, I had to reject 3 'Samsung memory cards, bought through Amazon Marketplace sellers before buying one directly from Samsung.

There is no copyright law in China and it is considered an honour, within their culture, to have an item copied. Imitation being seen as flattery. The worst that can happen to the company making fakes is to have their products confiscated by customs but with the state of UK customs the vast majority of items get through and the quantity of fakes is growing fast. Only the UK importers/sellers are accountable. The shop that sold my wife the laptop charger is being pursued by Apple.

Nowadays I try and buy everything from the manufacturer or one of the sellers listed on the manufacturer's website. It is probably not as bad out there as I think it is but my recent experiences have made me a little overcautious.
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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by Brucey » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:15 am

Boggie wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:00 am

.... but the spark plugs I bought were incredibly good fakes. Almost indestinguisable from the genuine items. It was only when I bought a new set from a local motor spares shop that I spotted the font of the part number stamped on the side was different. I sent one to NGK and they confirmed it to be a fake.....
if you have any details of this (photos etc ) please do share them with us. Also if there are 'known dodgy' vendors on e-bay etc.

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Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by Brucey » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:31 am

NigelC wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:01 pm

I did spend some time tonight composing an article about my abs controller with details but when I pressed submit it seems to have disappeared !! Don't you just love computers!
I think what happens is that the submission page/form your are typing into 'times out' and (depending on some combination of browser and site settings) the contents of your form are not only not submitted but may be lost entirely. This is incredibly frustrating. I have two suggestions;

1) compose anything you think might take a while to retype using a different piece of software (such as a word processing package; these can be set to 'autosave' at regular intervals so even if the computer falls over or there is a power cut you won't have lost it all). Cut and paste it into the form.

2) whilst you are typing into a form (and certainly before you submit it) get into the habit of 'select all' and 'copy' so that at least you have the text ready to 'paste' again.

The latter method is not completely foolproof; if the browser encounters an intractable problem of some kind your text can still be lost.

The former method is not ideal either; forums often use slightly weird formatting (eg BB-code) and this doesn't always translate well; often you will find that something that looks like plain text in a word processing package is anything but and contains all kinds of other characters, carriage returns etc. and won't display correctly once pasted into the form unless further editing is carried out. It is also possible to invoke BB code accidentally; for example if you type

"8 )" without the space/quotes you get this;

8)

hth

cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Boggie
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Location: Buckinghamshire UK

Re: Losing Brake Pedal When Engine Running

Post by Boggie » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:38 am

The eBay Seller was called: aj4151 but has long since disappeared. However, when I click on the url below i get taken to a page of the same plugs but a new seller name: asc_group
It might be that the two are not linked and eBay are just sending me to a new, sponsored supplier who sells the same item (real or otherwise).
Here are details from the eBay email:

Details for Item number: 8041016661
Item URL: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... IBSA:UK:31
Sale Date: Sunday, 01 Mar, 2009, 23:28:48 GMT
Seller: aj4151[contact seller]
Payment details: no extra charge for paypal.
Seller Information
Alan Jardine
Newtownards, Down BT23 5EG United Kingdom
1985 M635CSI
Classic Car Collector & Restorer.

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