Air conditionin function overview and retrofit/repair thread

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jacko
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Post by jacko »

If you Google Sangen, Singapore and specifications, you can find the pdf pamphlet with specs (including dimensions ) for their current compressors.
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Post by TN_M6 »

Rear valve is my fear DaHose. I also had a rear fail on our old minivan. Had to remove half of the rear interior to replace it and it would have been easier to cut a hole in the side of the car and then do bodywork to close up the wound. Really annoying thing about the van was it worked fine afterwards but I got a noisy valve that would make a whoop sound when there was a really light load and it began throttling back.

I converted one e30 to 134a with a flush, barrier hoses, O-rings, PAG oil and so on. It worked OK afterwards but not great.

At $40 per can it would be $200 to charge the M6 whereas I could charge it a couple times with HC12a for <$100. If you could use one gas to 'test' and another to charge that would be ideal but with the 'no mixing' rules that's about impossible to ensure even with a good vacuum pump.

The industry and government has conspired to make all this difficult to impossible for the average guy. And I'm not sure they really saved anything on the planet but probably produced more greenhouse gases just from the debates and paperwork :). R134a is not a totally green thing and based on all of it you see in stores I'm sure many people are just charging theirs up hoping to get it working but really just spewing it out over time.
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Post by dwcains »

FWIW, I paid just under $200 total for 14 cans of R12 on eBay, mostly 14 oz cans, but a few 12oz mixed in. I only bought that much because I have 2 cars' a/c I'm working on; the 635 and my '92 Spider. I'm not saying R12 is the only choice, but I'm in south Florida, so I want the best efficiency I can get, and neither of those cars had great a/c straight from the showroom. Hoping the parallel-flow condenser does its job well.

Also, to test the integrity of a repaired system, there are 2 methods. I talked to my a/c mechanic and he said they can fill the system with a charge of dry nitrogen, leave it in for a few days, and see if there's any pressure drop. Then, before filling with R12, a vacuum is puled, and that further verifies system integrity. Saves wasting whatever refrigerant you're planning to use.
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Post by jacko »

The rear expansion valve, unlike the front one, is easy to change.
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Post by jacko »

I've wondered if there is any appreciable difference in the calibration of replacement expansion valve for other than R12 use.
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Post by TN_M6 »

I imagine they only change the sealing materials in the valve to label it an R134a compatible x-valve. Pressure and temps are enough similar that either should work and what is ideal for either gas may fall within normal variation of valve build, especially if made by some low cost supplier with poor QC as they probably are anymore.

And I do not wish to change a front x-valve but I've not yet know of one like this to fail. The ONLY positive to changing one in front would be a good cleaning of the evap coil. The H type x-valve has maybe an o-ring or pressed in seal opposite the diaphragm side that is where I've always seen them leak. I've never seen the hermetically sealed diaphragms leak.

I have a friend with an untapped 30 lb R12 cylinder who would like about $500 for it. I might go that route but still undecided. I've never seen a good deal as mentioned above for R12. Mostly I see rusty old cans for $40 or the 'DUPONT' 'IG-LO' counterfeit stuff. ebay is wonderful at times but it can also be an open almost unregulated pawn shop for fences, thieves, lyers and counterfeiters. I don't trust it much and the last thing I bought the item worked but seller basically misrepresented item condition and not worth the trouble to try to recoup.

On the other hand last thing I bought on a BMW forum was a great deal and exactly what I wanted and needed.
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Post by Da_Hose »

OK. So I got my AC project done. This is gonna be a long post, but this thread is really becoming a go-to resource for anyone looking to do an AC conversion on a 6er.

I had to gather all the right pieces/parts to begin. I used the following to make the custom hoses.
All fittings are Aeroquip EZ-Clip o-ring style
#6- 45 degree (condenser end of HP hose)
#6- 90 degree (at HP output of pump)
#10- 90 degree with low side port (suction hose at regulator)
#10- 90 degree (suction hose at pump end)
EZ-clip crimping pliers
Custom adapter - #12 female (nut) to #10 insert fitting (o-ring ends)
The hose I used used was Aeroquip GH134W in size #8 and #10

First off, I have to say that you MUST oil the fitting end before stuffing it in the hose. Have your man undies on because you have to CRAM those things together. Depending on the angle of where you are doing it, it can be really difficult. I also recommend that you start by figuring out the compressor end and getting your angles on your fittings. I wish I had first mounted the compressor and figured out where the suction adapter should have been clocked. Then I could have attached the hose to the end of the connector and mounted the compressor with the hose on. It would then have been very easy to route it up to the regulator and cut to length, clip on connector and re-mount the regulator.

At any rate, I started at the regulator. If you work on the regulator while it is attached to the body, you can bend the tubing. DOH! I bent it back with no ill effect and realized the regulator has to be detached from the body, or you cannot get the wrenches on there and torque just the fitting. Since the system was de-gassed, it was no big deal. I disconnected the expansion valve sensor and then loosened the rear connection to the return y-pipe. I then attached the new 90-degree adapter, hand tightened everything back onto the mounting point, clocked the end of the new fitting and marked it. Then I removed the regulator, tightened the fitting with alignment marks correct and attached the a 3 foot piece of new hose with the end plugged. Attaching the hose is basic. Put oil on the fitting end, slide the clips onto the hose BEFORE you put it on the connector and slide the hose on. Then use the pliers to close the clips. Again ... it takes man hands to close it up. Final step is to re-mounted the regulator and re-connected the y-pipe and expansion valve sensor. Here is what the regulator end looks like with the low port hose attached.

Image

Next was the pump end of the suction hose. The 45 degree adapter routes the hose great and it doesn’t crush my coolant return line anymore. That giant nut is a BITCH to try and tighten with the pump in place. There must be some special crowfoot attachment for a socket to do it. I decided to fit things up only hand tight with the pump in it's final mounting position. The custom adapter went on with the #10 straight fitting on the end. I clocked the suction and high pressure fittings correctly and very carefully pulled the compressor back off the car, so as not to move anything. I marked the pieces, removed the adapter and drained the old oil. Draining was a good idea. Some muck had fallen into the suction port and the oil washed it out. When I turned the compressor by hand, all the remaining oil came out of the high pressure port. I also was very careful to collect and measure all the oil that came out, so I could refill with the correct amount. Once I refilled the compressor with oil, I attached the 45 degree adapter to the #10 straight fitting and torqued it down to the pump. I also put on the high pressure tube/fitting and torqued it down. Then I plugged the end of both adapter pipes and mounted the compressor. Here is a look at the compressor fittings. First is the custom made adapter, then the top of the pump with the oem adapter on the high side. The last one is a look up at the pump from underneath. See how accessible that high side connection is?

Image Image Image


The HP hose was really easy to deal with compared to the low pressure side. I put a 90 degree end on the hose and connected to the compressor end of that short metal line adapter. I then figured out how long the hose had to be including the 45 degree end. I fit the ends hand tight, clocked the hose in the connector, and marked it so I could get it right when off the car. I removed the hose, aligned the parts and clipped the rings closed. After that, the hose just mounted up. Here are some pics. of the end at the condenser and where the high and low pressure hoses cross each other.

Image Image

The ends of the hose at the compressor have now been covered with some Thermo-Tec ceramic, self adhesive heat shielding. It is very similar to what the stock hoses had on there. You really do need to add some heat shielding down at the compressor end. The headers are CRAZY hot.
Once everything was connected up, the next step was to draw down vacuum to boil out moisture and check that it was air tight. You can see I got it down to about 25 in/HG and it held for 45 mins. I wish I had an electric vacuum pump to pull it all the way down to 28, but 25 is a general minimum.

Image

Once I was confident it held vacuum, it was just a matter of charging the system. I used about 2 ½ of the little R134 containers and reached 42 psi low side, with 175 psi high side at 38C/100.4F temp. indicated outside at 6:30 PM. Yes, it was freaking hot today and I was sweating my ass off. However, the A/C seems to be cooling well. I might add a little more R134 and see if going between 48-50 psi low side will help the front cool a little better. Remember that there is a negative impact on performance if you start overfilling. You should add JUST enough to get it as cold as it can go.

Some of you more astute 6er owners will notice that my condenser is still a serpentine flow, OEM model. A PO converted to the R134 pump, but obviously did not manage to source a parallel flow condenser. I might be tempted to just weld up my own parallel flow unit from a universal core, but getting the car back on the road is most important right now.



Now then, moving on the final stage of this project will require some explanation. I installed a set of euro headers a while back. While I LOVE having them on there, they are an absolute nightmare to fit and once installed, it was impossible to re-fit the stock heat shield panel. Over the course of a couple years, the suction AC hose melted. I have no choice but to put the heat shield on, but as I said before it is impossible to re-mount that thing.

After thinking about this for a while, my solution was to use my OEM heat shield as a template and make my own custom heat shield out of expanded, galvanized metal. That type of construction would allow it to flex for mounting, but be solid once bolted in place. So then, here is what I came up with.

Image Image

The whole thing is made from a piece I folded in half and molded to the original. The reflectance comes from sandwiching 8 layers of the thickest aluminum foil I could find in between.

My process was as follows.
Cut a piece of expanded sheet long enough to mold onto the OEM shield. Trim it to exactly the top curvature. Then fold it up at the bottom, mold it in again and trim it so that it folds over the top curved edge and down the back about 5 inches. Once you have it molded exactly as you want, sandwich in the aluminum foil and fold over the top edge to seal it up. Trim down the overlapping “flapâ€
Last edited by Da_Hose on Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by slofut »

Damn what an awesome post Jose! Lots of time here to document this well, pics are great and the parts list and explanation is invaluable. Many, many thanks. =D>
If you change to a parallel flow condenser I guess you'll have to make new hoses there? I'm betting ac performance will be better too.
The heat shield is a work of art! :mrgreen:

Let us know how the AC goes down the road in a few days.
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Post by slofut »

Jose,
How did you make the custom adapter end? looks like a nicely dressed weld on the tube?
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Post by Da_Hose »

If I convert to a parallel flow, I will solder up hard pipe that allows me to use the new hose I made. I would make a new output hose and replace the receiver/drier. I was going to do that on this go-round, but time just got too tight. I am pretty confident I will upgrade to a parallel flow, so I am not overly worried. The original hose is a non-barrier, but it doesn't get exposed to the same heat as the ones I replaced and it's a very short run.

The adapter was sourced from a company in FL. called Cold Hose. https://coldhose.com/

Their tech. is a gruff dude, but he can make anything you need. Cost was $35 shipped and I had it three days after ordering. I might have been able to make my own, but the parts would be $20. The extra $15 seemed a pretty serious value considering the time and effort saved. I highly recommend their services. They can make you custom hoses if you know the EXACT length you need. My experience has been that it is better to make the hose on the car, so I opted to only get the adapter and loose parts to make everything else.

The heat shield was pretty tricky to get right and I am very happy with the end result. 8) I am telling ya, the heat reduction is immense. You GOTTA have a heat shield on there.
Last edited by Da_Hose on Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by slofut »

Da_Hose wrote:If I convert to a parallel flow, I will solder up hard pipe that allows me to use the new hose I made. I would make a new output hose and replace the receiver/drier. I was going to do that on this go-round, but time just got too tight. I am pretty confident I will upgrade to a parallel flow, so I am not overly worried. The original hose is a non-barrier, but it doesn't get exposed to the same heat as the ones I replaced and it's a very short run.

The adapter was sourced from a company in FL. called Cold Hose. https://coldhose.com/

Their tech. is a gruff dude, but he can make anything you need. Cost was $35 shipped and I had it three days after ordering. I might have been able to make my own, but the parts would be $20. The extra $15 seemed a pretty serious value considering the time and effort saved. I highly recommend their services. They can make you custom hoses if you know the EXACT length you need. My experience has been that it is better to make the hose on the car, so I opted to only get the adapter and loose parts to make everything else.

The heat shield was pretty tricky to get right and I am very happy with the end result. 8) I am telling ya, the head reduction is immense. You GOTTA have a heat shield on there.
Is there one already on the factory cast manifold? I think there's one on top that's part of the manifold gasket. But not one to shield the compressor. The cast manifold may not radiate as much heat?
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Post by Da_Hose »

The cast manifold radiates pretty good, but the OEM heat shield can actually be fitted. Although the OEM HP hose is wrapped in a fiberglass "tube" heat shield. It's basically the same thing I wrapped around the pieces.

I can report today that the rear AC is cold as expected and the front AC gets good and cold when the engine is above idle. I will still tinker with low side pressure this weekend and report back.

Jose
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Post by BlackBetty »

Got a question for you Jose, What did you end up doing with the other rubber hoses in the system?
Like the suction from the rear AC between the fender and the Y fitting? Did you replace the one under the back seat as well?

Another question I have in general, is there was some talk earlier about the size of the compressor, and how the pump number indicate size. Anyone have any idea on how to match this to our system/cars ? I presume bigger is not necessarily better.. I presume that a too large pump would cycle on and off excessively and a to small one would not keep up.... Just curious.. My system still kinda works , but thinking this winter is a good time to maybe redo it all.. Already have the correct parallel condenser...
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Post by Da_Hose »

No, I did not replace all the other hoses inside the car. I only swapped out the melted and crumbling hoses by the exhaust headers. I have parts and spare hose to do everything else, but a complete teardown is not what I was interested in accomplishing at this time. I needed the car back on the road, and that just required hoses up front. Eventually I will switch to driving a 1973 2002 on a daily basis. That is when I can do all the real toothbrush type cleaning, replace the exchanger with a modern parallel flow, change the fan out for something more powerful and finish swapping out the hoses. I might even end up changing out the forward expansion valve.

The problem with R134 is that it is not as efficient as R12, so you have to sink out more heat. A parallel flow exchanger and more powerful fan will do what you need and still work with an older compressor.

Jose
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Post by BlackBetty »

Da_Hose wrote:No, I did not replace all the other hoses inside the car. I only swapped out the melted and crumbling hoses by the exhaust headers. I have parts and spare hose to do everything else, but a complete teardown is not what I was interested in accomplishing at this time. I needed the car back on the road, and that just required hoses up front. Eventually I will switch to driving a 1973 2002 on a daily basis. That is when I can do all the real toothbrush type cleaning, replace the exchanger with a modern parallel flow, change the fan out for something more powerful and finish swapping out the hoses. I might even end up changing out the forward expansion valve.

The problem with R134 is that it is not as efficient as R12, so you have to sink out more heat. A parallel flow exchanger and more powerful fan will do what you need and still work with an older compressor.

Jose
Ok, makes sense,Need to get her going again... As far as expansion valve , just to clean the crud out of it or is there a difference Between valves for R12/134?. Was trying to figure that out as well if it was worth tearing that all apart to clean and there might be an Oring in there as well...
My thoughts on the compressor were, it is going to fail sooner then later, so while having the system torn apart for the new condenser, might as well install a new style and more efficient compressor, then if that ever fails in the future, it will be a simple swap, everything will be already plumbed and fitted correctly..
Thanks for the heads up on the larger fan, let us know what you decide..... Your opinion and help is always valued ....
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Post by Da_Hose »

I fully agree with changing out the pump. The Sanden compressor is better for the conversion because it moves more of the less efficient R134 refrigerant. Considering you can get a rebuilt Sanden pump for about $150, there really is no reason to stick with the old compressor.

The front expansion valve is not rebuildable like the rear. My understanding is that if it gets all crudded up (which my original might well be), the only option is replacement. However, it's a major job to get in there and swap it. I always figure that if it is a MAJOR job just to get to and clean out an old part, I will swap it for new if price is reasonable. I have no desire to EVER re-do a repair.

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Post by BlackBetty »

Da_Hose wrote: I always figure that if it is a MAJOR job just to get to and clean out an old part, I will swap it for new if price is reasonable. I have no desire to EVER re-do a repair.

Jose
Yeah, I hear you, hate doing things twice, specially if it's a pain to get to...
I will probably follow your lead and just order new.. Be easier ...
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Post by sansouci »

If you are switching from R12 to R134a, I was told the system must be flushed even if the compressor is new. How do you do it and what solvent is used?
Thanks for the great thread.
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Post by BlackBetty »

sansouci wrote:If you are switching from R12 to R134a, I was told the system must be flushed even if the compressor is new. How do you do it and what solvent is used?
Thanks for the great thread.
Ken
Correct, the oils are not compatable..... Acetone was suggested earlier to clean the lines and evaporator/ condenser out .... Dries with no residue ....Try not to blow yourself up 😀
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Re: Parallel flow condensor

Post by songzunhuang »

Da_Hose wrote:I fully agree with changing out the pump. The Sanden compressor is better for the conversion because it moves more of the less efficient R134 refrigerant. Considering you can get a rebuilt Sanden pump for about $150, there really is no reason to stick with the old compressor.

The front expansion valve is not rebuildable like the rear. My understanding is that if it gets all crudded up (which my original might well be), the only option is replacement. However, it's a major job to get in there and swap it. I always figure that if it is a MAJOR job just to get to and clean out an old part, I will swap it for new if price is reasonable. I have no desire to EVER re-do a repair.

Jose
Wondering if you ever got to the parallel flow condenser or if your system has been performing well enough. I am about to undertake this exercise for my car.Although it doesn't have a rear a/c, I think much of the other things are the same. I did a complete evac and charge but I am only seeing about 45 psi on the lot and 150 on the high. The air blows at 60 degrees, but no matter what I try, it never gets cooler than that. Sounds good, but when it's 90 outside, the meager flow of 60 degree air does not cool the interior.

Anyhow, I'd like to embark on this upgrade and am in the data gathering phase. Thanks for any info.
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Re: Air conditionin function overview and retrofit/repair thread

Post by Da_Hose »

Hi Song,

I just moved, so the condenser is still sitting in the parts bin. I can report that if the engine is spinning above idle, then I do get nice, cold air from both front and rear units.

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Re: Air conditionin function overview and retrofit/repair thread

Post by songzunhuang »

Da_Hose wrote:Hi Song,

I just moved, so the condenser is still sitting in the parts bin. I can report that if the engine is spinning above idle, then I do get nice, cold air from both front and rear units.

Jose
Oh, are you no longer in Napa? What place is nicer than that!?
At this point, I have a compressor, parallel flow condenser, evap valve and drier on my shopping list. I'll have to figure out if I get a Sanden, how I will mount it. It's mounting system is very different from mine. I also saw a direct compressor replacement from Summit Racing which looks like a ringer for the compressor I have now. Not sure if it's another R12 unit or adapter for R134.

Anyhow, I am waiting until I feel comfortable with everything (and it gets cooler) before I attack all of this.
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Re: Air conditionin function overview and retrofit/repair thread

Post by Da_Hose »

I'm still in Napa, just moved to another house in the middle of town.

Look on mye28.com for a thread about sanden compressor mount adapters. I highly recommend you get those, along with an E30 AC lower bracket. The E30 version is a direct replacement for ours, but it allows for much more adjustability, which makes putting a belt on WAY easier. I got an E30 lower bracket for $25 on ebay.

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Re: Air conditionin function overview and retrofit/repair thread

Post by songzunhuang »

Da_Hose wrote:I'm still in Napa, just moved to another house in the middle of town.

Look on mye28.com for a thread about sanden compressor mount adapters. I highly recommend you get those, along with an E30 AC lower bracket. The E30 version is a direct replacement for ours, but it allows for much more adjustability, which makes putting a belt on WAY easier. I got an E30 lower bracket for $25 on ebay.

Jose
Hey thanks for the tip. I picked this up on eBay a minute ago. http://www.ebay.com/itm/262613072416
It looks to be an E30 AC lower bracket. I hope it makes it as easy to adjust my compressor as it did for you.
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Re: Air conditionin function overview and retrofit/repair thread

Post by hornhospital »

songzunhuang wrote: Hey thanks for the tip. I picked this up on eBay a minute ago. http://www.ebay.com/itm/262613072416
It looks to be an E30 AC lower bracket. I hope it makes it as easy to adjust my compressor as it did for you.
It is.
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