I was finishing up my exhaust system welding and noticed something was dripping from the front end. I took a closer look and realized it was coolant. The 5 year old radiator is leaking. Just one thing after another. I have less than 6000 miles on that damned radiator. Nothing cracked, its the seal on the passenger side end cap.
I decided I am NOT just throwing money at another radiator. I bent the retaining tabs back and took off the end cap. The gasket is fine, so I reassembled with "Great Stuff" gasket maker to ensure a good seal. I was able to get it all back together by using large channellock pliers to compress just enough to get the tab bent back in place with a very small ball pen hammer. Once the tabs were over the lip and holding the cap on, I used a nail finishing chisel to pein the tabs all the way on. The end result looks and feels solid. I will give it a couple days to set and will test it in the tub for leaks. I will report back if it sealed well.
Whether I am able to use the radiator or not, I have been thinking of converting to waterless coolant. Since the system was almost completely empty, I pulled the block drain and have ordered 4 gallons of waterless coolant. It should be here Weds. or Thurs. My hope is that the radiator will seal and the nominal operating pressure of waterless coolant will help it last through all my ownership. If not, then I will fabricate and braze on aluminum end caps.
Jose
Now it's a radiator problem
Moderators: GRNSHRK, ron, bfons
Now it's a radiator problem
1987 M6 - My dream car
-
rmorin1249
Re: Now it's a radiator problem
OK, I'll ask the proverbial stupid question. What in the heck is "waterless coolant"? I always thought coolant was a mixture of water and some sort of chemical to increase the coolant properties of the "water". Thanks for educating me.Da_Hose wrote:I was finishing up my exhaust system welding and noticed something was dripping from the front end. I took a closer look and realized it was coolant. The 5 year old radiator is leaking. Just one thing after another. I have less than 6000 miles on that damned radiator. Nothing cracked, its the seal on the passenger side end cap.
I decided I am NOT just throwing money at another radiator. I bent the retaining tabs back and took off the end cap. The gasket is fine, so I reassembled with "Great Stuff" gasket maker to ensure a good seal. I was able to get it all back together by using large channellock pliers to compress just enough to get the tab bent back in place with a very small ball pen hammer. Once the tabs were over the lip and holding the cap on, I used a nail finishing chisel to pein the tabs all the way on. The end result looks and feels solid. I will give it a couple days to set and will test it in the tub for leaks. I will report back if it sealed well.
Whether I am able to use the radiator or not, I have been thinking of converting to waterless coolant. Since the system was almost completely empty, I pulled the block drain and have ordered 4 gallons of waterless coolant. It should be here Weds. or Thurs. My hope is that the radiator will seal and the nominal operating pressure of waterless coolant will help it last through all my ownership. If not, then I will fabricate and braze on aluminum end caps.
Jose
Re: Now it's a radiator problem
neat idea, http://www.evanscooling.com/ long story short is it has a super high boiling point so it remains in contact and transfers heat when you really need it unlike water
rmorin1249 wrote: OK, I'll ask the proverbial stupid question. What in the heck is "waterless coolant"? I always thought coolant was a mixture of water and some sort of chemical to increase the coolant properties of the "water". Thanks for educating me.
3/81 633 m30b35 & getrag 260/6, motronic 1.3 -sold
86 635 with nearly all goodies from rotted away 85 m635 including the m88/3, tuning in progress on motronic 3.3.1
86 635 with nearly all goodies from rotted away 85 m635 including the m88/3, tuning in progress on motronic 3.3.1
Then you'll know.
jay leno did a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7PykrgzWPQ
on some engines getting every drop of water out isnt so easy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7PykrgzWPQ
on some engines getting every drop of water out isnt so easy.
Karmann, German for extra rusty.
The Evans waterless coolant is tried and true at this point. It can handle up to 3% water, so it isn't critical to get absolutely all the water out, but I can understand really wanting to get out all the glycol.
The biggest benefit from switching over, is the elimination of oxidation. Our cast iron blocks, metal water pumps and aluminum parts all corrode from contact with the water in traditional coolant. By completely eliminating the water, we should not see any rusting of those parts and that will prolong the life of our engines.
I completely drained and washed out the radiator, the upper and lower hoses, pulled the block drain plug and vacuumed out the driver side coolant intake hose. The one thing I didn't do yet, was disconnect the heater lines and drain out the heater exchanger. I will do that this weekend and then I can refill with the waterless coolant.
Jose
The biggest benefit from switching over, is the elimination of oxidation. Our cast iron blocks, metal water pumps and aluminum parts all corrode from contact with the water in traditional coolant. By completely eliminating the water, we should not see any rusting of those parts and that will prolong the life of our engines.
I completely drained and washed out the radiator, the upper and lower hoses, pulled the block drain plug and vacuumed out the driver side coolant intake hose. The one thing I didn't do yet, was disconnect the heater lines and drain out the heater exchanger. I will do that this weekend and then I can refill with the waterless coolant.
Jose
1987 M6 - My dream car
-
rmorin1249
Just watched the video and I must admit, it sounds "almost too good to be true", but then again, surely we can trust Jay Leno. Seriously, my biggest concern, not being mechanically inclined would be how hard it is to remove all the water. Yes, I heard that 3% is OK, but I would really like to remove it all. Would a reputable radiator shop have the know how to completely blow out all the water from the entire system including the heater?
There are a bunch of vendors selling this stuff on ebay. I searched in MD and there are only a couple of dealers. I will be interested to read the feedback from any E24 owners who make the switch. I learned something to day so that's a good thing.
There are a bunch of vendors selling this stuff on ebay. I searched in MD and there are only a couple of dealers. I will be interested to read the feedback from any E24 owners who make the switch. I learned something to day so that's a good thing.
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rmorin1249
I found an ebay supplier that sells a 4 gallon case for $76 (our system takes just over 3 gallons) and it was another $15 for shipping. So all-in-all, the price is just shy of $100.
If you look at my cylinder head rebuild documents you will see how I made a vacuum rig to suck coolant out of the system. Draining out all the fluid is a matter of using something like my vacuum rig and a leaf blower of all things.
On an S38, you would jack up the front of the car, pull the block drain and remove the radiator. Empty the radiator and rinse/dry. Next, put the leaf blower into the exhaust side hose and blow through. That will blow out the lower block, but you will probably still have coolant left in the crossover hose that connects the water pump housing to the exhaust side coolant manifold at the front of the engine. Remove the exhaust side coolant hose and use the vacuum rig to suck the coolant out right at that low point of the manifold (at the front).
The block should now be totally empty, but the heater core could still have fluid. The way to drain that is to disconnect the return hose at the firewall and supply hose before the heater valve. Apply 12V to the heater valve and it will open, then you can blow air through valve with your leaf blower or small compressor. You should fit a small piece of hose to deflect the fluid coming out of the firewall, so it doesn't spray everywhere.
At that point, the whole system should be just about bone dry and ready for the new coolant.
Jose
If you look at my cylinder head rebuild documents you will see how I made a vacuum rig to suck coolant out of the system. Draining out all the fluid is a matter of using something like my vacuum rig and a leaf blower of all things.
On an S38, you would jack up the front of the car, pull the block drain and remove the radiator. Empty the radiator and rinse/dry. Next, put the leaf blower into the exhaust side hose and blow through. That will blow out the lower block, but you will probably still have coolant left in the crossover hose that connects the water pump housing to the exhaust side coolant manifold at the front of the engine. Remove the exhaust side coolant hose and use the vacuum rig to suck the coolant out right at that low point of the manifold (at the front).
The block should now be totally empty, but the heater core could still have fluid. The way to drain that is to disconnect the return hose at the firewall and supply hose before the heater valve. Apply 12V to the heater valve and it will open, then you can blow air through valve with your leaf blower or small compressor. You should fit a small piece of hose to deflect the fluid coming out of the firewall, so it doesn't spray everywhere.
At that point, the whole system should be just about bone dry and ready for the new coolant.
Jose
1987 M6 - My dream car
-
rmorin1249
Sounds like you have a plan. Please let us know how it goes and how the new coolant performs. This will be an interesting discussion at the SE Sharkfest in May.Da_Hose wrote:I found an ebay supplier that sells a 4 gallon case for $76 (our system takes just over 3 gallons) and it was another $15 for shipping. So all-in-all, the price is just shy of $100.
If you look at my cylinder head rebuild documents you will see how I made a vacuum rig to suck coolant out of the system. Draining out all the fluid is a matter of using something like my vacuum rig and a leaf blower of all things.
On an S38, you would jack up the front of the car, pull the block drain and remove the radiator. Empty the radiator and rinse/dry. Next, put the leaf blower into the exhaust side hose and blow through. That will blow out the lower block, but you will probably still have coolant left in the crossover hose that connects the water pump housing to the exhaust side coolant manifold at the front of the engine. Remove the exhaust side coolant hose and use the vacuum rig to suck the coolant out right at that low point of the manifold (at the front).
The block should now be totally empty, but the heater core could still have fluid. The way to drain that is to disconnect the return hose at the firewall and supply hose before the heater valve. Apply 12V to the heater valve and it will open, then you can blow air through valve with your leaf blower or small compressor. You should fit a small piece of hose to deflect the fluid coming out of the firewall, so it doesn't spray everywhere.
At that point, the whole system should be just about bone dry and ready for the new coolant.
Jose
Evans do a preperation fluid as well that can absorb the remaining water:
""
Using Evans Prep Fluid.
To further ensure that the cooling system is as free from water as possible we recommed Evans Prep Fluid. This hygroscopic fluid absorbs any residual water and removes any loose dirt and scale. Fill the system with Evans Prep Fluid and run the engine until normal operating temperature is reached. Allow to cool then redrain.
Tips & Tricks. Once you have drained the Prep Fluid store it in an air tight container as it can be used several times.
""
Ben
""
Using Evans Prep Fluid.
To further ensure that the cooling system is as free from water as possible we recommed Evans Prep Fluid. This hygroscopic fluid absorbs any residual water and removes any loose dirt and scale. Fill the system with Evans Prep Fluid and run the engine until normal operating temperature is reached. Allow to cool then redrain.
Tips & Tricks. Once you have drained the Prep Fluid store it in an air tight container as it can be used several times.
""
Ben
-
Pod
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 4493
- Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:32 pm
- Location: usually in the barn, Kent, England.
Well, you guys over the pond get a great price (as usual). Over here, you can buy 5L Power Cool 180 for £64.90, 7L for £89.98 or 7L Prep Fluid for £54.95.
So that works out at current exchage rates as US$108; US$150.26 & US$91.76. So that means we're paying about FOUR times as much as Jose can get it for
So that works out at current exchage rates as US$108; US$150.26 & US$91.76. So that means we're paying about FOUR times as much as Jose can get it for
A lot of the 996 boys have been singing the praises of waterless coolant, it appears to have helped with the water cooled engines which have a bit of a reputation for having 'hot spots' in the cylinder heads leading to self destruction 
No such worries for my little air cooled 993
No such worries for my little air cooled 993
94 Porsche 993
86 BMW M635CSi (Sold! Being Restored in Poland!)
97 Jeep -winter hack!
05 325 MSport Touring
86 BMW M635CSi (Sold! Being Restored in Poland!)
97 Jeep -winter hack!
05 325 MSport Touring
I just got my S38 engine running after being standing for 5 years. I had trouble immediately with overheating at idle with just water in the system. You could hear it micro boiling in the block even though the discharge temp was only averaging 80 degrees C. I looked at various coolants, we have a waterless one made locally here by a company called Liquid Intelligence - check their website. I contacted them to order some system cleaner and waterless coolant but they recommended a lower cost product that was a blend of demineralised water and ethylene glycol with a double shot of water wetter. The system cleaner worked great and the coolant has solved the issue. Their comment was that the waterless product was aimed more at extreme applications mainly motorsport. It uses "nano technology". Theoretically the molecules of coolant are smaller, therefore they have a greater surface area to volume ratio which aids heat transfer both into and out of the coolant. This stuff is good but the basics need to be right first, clean system, good radiator, fans and clutches.
I found a thread on a diesel forum where they talk about waterless coolants. An Evans rep. chimed in with good info.
http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/genera ... olant.html
Based on what they discuss in the thread above, it sounds like the Liquid Intelligence product is pure propylene glycol mixed with DI water. Can you get an MSDS from them?
Evans started trying out pure PG and proved it as an alternative for cooling, but pure PG will not flow well at low temp. That means it is not good for general auto use. Evans has a motorsport product for use at the many tracks which prohibit any ethylene glycol in cooling systems, but they tell you it is not suitable for general auto use. That sounds like a description for a pure PG product.
The Evans NPG product is 30% PG and 70% ethylene glycol. That mixture ratio allows the Evans product to flow well at low temps. and makes it possible for use as a general motor vehicle coolant. There is no specific nano-technology in the product, but descriptions of EG do say it wicks into areas that water might not. That is because the EG can dissolve silicates and some mineralization areas. So maybe in engines with really high mileage and a hard life kind of duty cycle (like diesel engines) it would be more prone to leaking than a pure PG product. My guess is that in Australia, you blokes might have a lot of trucks that meet the above condition. You also have some pretty hot weather in a lot of your populated areas and running vehicles in the Outback sounds like a torture test, so Liquid Intelligence could more safely promote their PG product. My concern would be that the coolant that is up against the block will still include water and that will boil at given temp, causing an insulating gas layer, which contributes to higher temps. at extremes.
I tested the radiator in the bath tub last night and it seems leak free. I am just about done with my morning coffee and will report back after I get everything re-assembled and re=filled.
Jose
http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/genera ... olant.html
Based on what they discuss in the thread above, it sounds like the Liquid Intelligence product is pure propylene glycol mixed with DI water. Can you get an MSDS from them?
Evans started trying out pure PG and proved it as an alternative for cooling, but pure PG will not flow well at low temp. That means it is not good for general auto use. Evans has a motorsport product for use at the many tracks which prohibit any ethylene glycol in cooling systems, but they tell you it is not suitable for general auto use. That sounds like a description for a pure PG product.
The Evans NPG product is 30% PG and 70% ethylene glycol. That mixture ratio allows the Evans product to flow well at low temps. and makes it possible for use as a general motor vehicle coolant. There is no specific nano-technology in the product, but descriptions of EG do say it wicks into areas that water might not. That is because the EG can dissolve silicates and some mineralization areas. So maybe in engines with really high mileage and a hard life kind of duty cycle (like diesel engines) it would be more prone to leaking than a pure PG product. My guess is that in Australia, you blokes might have a lot of trucks that meet the above condition. You also have some pretty hot weather in a lot of your populated areas and running vehicles in the Outback sounds like a torture test, so Liquid Intelligence could more safely promote their PG product. My concern would be that the coolant that is up against the block will still include water and that will boil at given temp, causing an insulating gas layer, which contributes to higher temps. at extremes.
I tested the radiator in the bath tub last night and it seems leak free. I am just about done with my morning coffee and will report back after I get everything re-assembled and re=filled.
Jose
1987 M6 - My dream car
-
rmorin1249
Thanks for the update, Jose. I am following this thread closely and will be interested to see if your car runs hotter or cooler with this new coolant. Here in the East during the hotter summer months, some of us experience hotter than normal temps especially with the AC on and at lower speeds, at least I have experienced this condition last summer in temps exceeding 100 degrees in Arkansas while driving my home from TX.Da_Hose wrote:I found a thread on a diesel forum where they talk about waterless coolants. An Evans rep. chimed in with good info.
http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/genera ... olant.html
Based on what they discuss in the thread above, it sounds like the Liquid Intelligence product is pure propylene glycol mixed with DI water. Can you get an MSDS from them?
Evans started trying out pure PG and proved it as an alternative for cooling, but pure PG will not flow well at low temp. That means it is not good for general auto use. Evans has a motorsport product for use at the many tracks which prohibit any ethylene glycol in cooling systems, but they tell you it is not suitable for general auto use. That sounds like a description for a pure PG product.
The Evans NPG product is 30% PG and 70% ethylene glycol. That mixture ratio allows the Evans product to flow well at low temps. and makes it possible for use as a general motor vehicle coolant. There is no specific nano-technology in the product, but descriptions of EG do say it wicks into areas that water might not. That is because the EG can dissolve silicates and some mineralization areas. So maybe in engines with really high mileage and a hard life kind of duty cycle (like diesel engines) it would be more prone to leaking than a pure PG product. My guess is that in Australia, you blokes might have a lot of trucks that meet the above condition. You also have some pretty hot weather in a lot of your populated areas and running vehicles in the Outback sounds like a torture test, so Liquid Intelligence could more safely promote their PG product. My concern would be that the coolant that is up against the block will still include water and that will boil at given temp, causing an insulating gas layer, which contributes to higher temps. at extremes.
I tested the radiator in the bath tub last night and it seems leak free. I am just about done with my morning coffee and will report back after I get everything re-assembled and re=filled.
Jose
Ok, folks. I completed the waterless coolant switchover today and even spent 3 HOURS straightening the fins in the radiator that someone had previously crushed in. Looks like that could have been from a bad mounting job of the radiator or a ham fisted removal of a drive belt.
At any rate, the fins were straightened and the radiator tested leak free. It was ready for installation.
I still needed to drain the heater core, so I studied the hoses and fittings. The air plenum on an S38 makes access IMPOSSIBLE on that side of the engine to any fitting on the heater return side. So I decided to change gears.
First, I busted out the vac-u-suck.
Then I realized that the heater return line has a T fitting that connects to the overflow tank. So I dicsonnected that hose and shoved the end of the vac-u-suck hose all the way down to the T fitting.
At that point, I turned on the vacuum and dropped the hose down so the open end was just a little higher than the t-fitting. That drained out a lot of coolant. To finish the job, I unbolted the heater valve and just removed the core altogether. That allowed me to get my yard leaf blower tip (it is cone shaped) right over the end of the open valve. By turning it on/off I could blow some coolant out and it would get sucked up by the vacuumed hose end. I repeated a little at a time and eventually it was all cleared out.
Once that was done, I simply put the valve core back in and bolted the valve to the body. Then I re-connected all the coolant hoses, triple checked every clamp and poured in one gallon of Evans NPG+ coolant.
No leaks were evident, so I poured in a second gallon and started up the car. I slowly poured in more coolant, checking the radiator intake line to see when the thermostat opened up. Once it was warm, I started squeezing the radiator intake line to "burp" the liquid back into the overlow tank. Doing it quickly would create a surge that seemed to sort "impact" liquid into the radiator, squeezing out all the air at the top of the radiator. As the level got low, I added more coolant. I just kept repeating that process until the overflow tank was full and almost all of the third gallon went in. According to "the book" a completely empty system should take 3.2 gallons of coolant. I got in about a 1/4 cup shy of 3 gallons. Even with the theoretical full capacity being completely accurate, I would still be at less than 3% water. So I am totally confident you can swap out your coolant without needing special equipment or the conversion fluid. To get that last bit of water vapor out of the system, I modified a failed coolant level sensor by removing the gasket and cutting a ridge into the edge of the housing. Now it can thread on and it has a vent hole that freely allows air in/out. As water boils off, the steam will find the point of escape and over the course of the next month or two, I expect that all remaining moisture will get boiled off.
I did also read that while the normal test for excessive moisture in the waterless coolant is to use a refractometer, you can actually boil test as well. Take a small sample and heat it. If it just sort of simmers, it does not have water. If it gets to a rolling boil, there is too much water in it. I will run the car for a couple of days and do the liquid boiling test.
My initial startup and heat up revealed a tiny leak at the radiator outlet, but that was just a loose hose clamp. The physical radiator seam I repaired stayed nice and dry. We will see how it all holds up over the next week of use.
My initial performance test was a simple repeat of a driveway condition I have noticed. With regular coolant and one bottle of water wetter, I could watch my temperature rise if I ran the car in my driveway for about 10-15 minutes. Revving the engine would move coolant around and bring it back down to mid-point, but then it would rise again. If I ran a high idle to test anything, I could watch the temp rise to over mid-point on the gauge. Today, I had the engine fully warm and then ran at a high idle for a few minutes (holding the throttle). It never went past mid-point. I then let it sit in the driveway at normal idle for 15 minutes. It never went past mid-point.
I will report more as I live with everything over the next week, but I am quite happy with what I see so far.
Jose
At any rate, the fins were straightened and the radiator tested leak free. It was ready for installation.
I still needed to drain the heater core, so I studied the hoses and fittings. The air plenum on an S38 makes access IMPOSSIBLE on that side of the engine to any fitting on the heater return side. So I decided to change gears.
First, I busted out the vac-u-suck.
Then I realized that the heater return line has a T fitting that connects to the overflow tank. So I dicsonnected that hose and shoved the end of the vac-u-suck hose all the way down to the T fitting.
At that point, I turned on the vacuum and dropped the hose down so the open end was just a little higher than the t-fitting. That drained out a lot of coolant. To finish the job, I unbolted the heater valve and just removed the core altogether. That allowed me to get my yard leaf blower tip (it is cone shaped) right over the end of the open valve. By turning it on/off I could blow some coolant out and it would get sucked up by the vacuumed hose end. I repeated a little at a time and eventually it was all cleared out.
Once that was done, I simply put the valve core back in and bolted the valve to the body. Then I re-connected all the coolant hoses, triple checked every clamp and poured in one gallon of Evans NPG+ coolant.
No leaks were evident, so I poured in a second gallon and started up the car. I slowly poured in more coolant, checking the radiator intake line to see when the thermostat opened up. Once it was warm, I started squeezing the radiator intake line to "burp" the liquid back into the overlow tank. Doing it quickly would create a surge that seemed to sort "impact" liquid into the radiator, squeezing out all the air at the top of the radiator. As the level got low, I added more coolant. I just kept repeating that process until the overflow tank was full and almost all of the third gallon went in. According to "the book" a completely empty system should take 3.2 gallons of coolant. I got in about a 1/4 cup shy of 3 gallons. Even with the theoretical full capacity being completely accurate, I would still be at less than 3% water. So I am totally confident you can swap out your coolant without needing special equipment or the conversion fluid. To get that last bit of water vapor out of the system, I modified a failed coolant level sensor by removing the gasket and cutting a ridge into the edge of the housing. Now it can thread on and it has a vent hole that freely allows air in/out. As water boils off, the steam will find the point of escape and over the course of the next month or two, I expect that all remaining moisture will get boiled off.
I did also read that while the normal test for excessive moisture in the waterless coolant is to use a refractometer, you can actually boil test as well. Take a small sample and heat it. If it just sort of simmers, it does not have water. If it gets to a rolling boil, there is too much water in it. I will run the car for a couple of days and do the liquid boiling test.
My initial startup and heat up revealed a tiny leak at the radiator outlet, but that was just a loose hose clamp. The physical radiator seam I repaired stayed nice and dry. We will see how it all holds up over the next week of use.
My initial performance test was a simple repeat of a driveway condition I have noticed. With regular coolant and one bottle of water wetter, I could watch my temperature rise if I ran the car in my driveway for about 10-15 minutes. Revving the engine would move coolant around and bring it back down to mid-point, but then it would rise again. If I ran a high idle to test anything, I could watch the temp rise to over mid-point on the gauge. Today, I had the engine fully warm and then ran at a high idle for a few minutes (holding the throttle). It never went past mid-point. I then let it sit in the driveway at normal idle for 15 minutes. It never went past mid-point.
I will report more as I live with everything over the next week, but I am quite happy with what I see so far.
Jose
1987 M6 - My dream car
Got some real time driving in today in 70+ degree weather. The temp. gauge seems to read about normal. Right in the middle. I don't think the new coolant makes any difference in reducing the temps., so maybe it just doesn't heat up the same. As in, it can dissipate heat better from engine to radiator.
Jose
Jose
1987 M6 - My dream car