Whats up with no Euro Chain Tensioners?

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sansouci
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Post by sansouci »

AlpinaCSi
You be the expert here. But if there is no alternative, "reasonable price" and the only source of world-side supply becomes a monopoly and is subject to negotiation.

Regards,
Ken
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Post by Alpinacsi »

sansouci wrote:AlpinaCSi
You be the expert here. But if there is no alternative, "reasonable price" and the only source of world-side supply becomes a monopoly and is subject to negotiation.

Regards,
Ken
True but an upgrade alternative is currently available in the form of conversion to duplex chain and associated parts.
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duplex

Post by brickwhite »

Doesn't the upgrade to duplex chain require a new head(duplex style), machining of the block and all new parts?

It's not just buy the duplex parts?

Alpinacsi wrote:
sansouci wrote:AlpinaCSi
You be the expert here. But if there is no alternative, "reasonable price" and the only source of world-side supply becomes a monopoly and is subject to negotiation.

Regards,
Ken
True but an upgrade alternative is currently available in the form of conversion to duplex chain and associated parts.
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Post by GazM3 »

Alpinacsi wrote:
sansouci wrote:Can someone get a technical drawing of the part with all the dimensions? Or use the old part as a basis for the drawing. I'm sure there must be some machine shop that can fab them up?
Not saying that you can not find a shop to fab them up but it is not that simple. I own a machine shop and have just installed several pieces of new equipment and this is not something I would be looking at doing. There is more than machining here if you want to replicate the bonded or fused wear surface. Again; it can be done but good luck finding a shop with the means to produce them in extremely small quantities at an affordable price.
Sounds like a 3D printing job.
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Post by Alpinacsi »

GazM3 wrote:
Sounds like a 3D printing job.
3D printing out of what material? Mine is not able to extrude much more than various types of plastics.
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Re: duplex

Post by Alpinacsi »

brickwhite wrote:Doesn't the upgrade to duplex chain require a new head(duplex style), machining of the block and all new parts?

It's not just buy the duplex parts?
Head does not need to be replaced but some minor grinding is necessary.

Yes new parts are needed just as they are needed to properly replace the original chain. Point here is if the original is not available this is an option.

Just because the part is NLA from BMW today does not mean that is will be that way in 6mo. Just does not help the OP when he needs parts now.
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Post by Stoffie »

Popped into my mechanic's this week and had him check the availability of the part. Indeed it is NLA? but as Alpinacsi said, that does not mean it won't be available in the future.

I ordered the part, so it's on backorder now, I wonder how long it will take before it actually gets back in stock :roll:
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tensioner

Post by brickwhite »

Did you order it at the dealer? Tried Maximilian they refunded my money after I placed the order. And the dealer just tells me its NLA and will not order it.
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Post by Stoffie »

Like I told you in PM, we'll see what happens. Patience is the only way now...

If the parts shows up eventually (and I guess it will, just no saying when), it should be available for order again through the dealer.

That being said I think I'll get in touch with BMW Classic to see if they can shed any more light on this BS :mrgreen:

My experience with BMW parts for older models is as follows, as stock depletes, prices shoot up (had this happen with my AFM, these days it's a couple of hundred cheaper again compared to when I bought one), then the parts goes NLA for a while as stock goes to 0. After a while, when demand is such, they'll get another batch made, prices are usually more reasonable again. And then the whole story starts again.
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Post by GaAlpinaowner »

Stoffie wrote:Like I told you in PM, we'll see what happens. Patience is the only way now...

If the parts shows up eventually (and I guess it will, just no saying when), it should be available for order again through the dealer.

That being said I think I'll get in touch with BMW Classic to see if they can shed any more light on this BS :mrgreen:

My experience with BMW parts for older models is as follows, as stock depletes, prices shoot up (had this happen with my AFM, these days it's a couple of hundred cheaper again compared to when I bought one), then the parts goes NLA for a while as stock goes to 0. After a while, when demand is such, they'll get another batch made, prices are usually more reasonable again. And then the whole story starts again.
I hope you have better luck than me with BMW Classic ...they gave me nothing and gave me no indication that they would or would not make anymore. After several wild goose chases I gave up and will just use my existing tensioner....
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Post by brickwhite »

Can the Duplex Chain Tension-er guide rail be used?

Image

Image

Part number-11311309945

Looks similar to the single chain design. Is it wider altogether?

Image

Image

part number - 11311307442
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Post by jpr210 »

Anyone have an update on this NLA issue? getting close to do mine and wondering what to do.

TIA

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Post by jpr210 »

bump for an update
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Post by Da_Hose »

I think the reason parts become unobtainium so quick is that mobile traditions only does one run a year.

Take the door seals as an example. NOBODY in the whole world has the perimeter door seals in stock. When you place an order, they tell you that the expected backorder date is in April. So everything I hear says that mobile traditions gathers order information and does one production run of classic parts sometime in February/March.

The chain tensioners are made from aluminum bodies and the slider face is made of a plastic like Ertalon Nylon 4.6 (Stanyl). I imagine that you could re-face a used aluminum mounting frame, but I would also imagine that the per unit cost would be insane to do a small production run. Hence our reliance and frustration with the production volume of the mobile traditions group.

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Post by sansouci »

I know I raised the issue of fabbing these and the response was "it would be ridiculously expensive" or "there's an alternative". But I ran across hundreds of talented machinists used to doing "one-off" or small runs.
Take a look for your amusement:
https://plus.google.com/photos/10202115 ... banner=pwa

Regards and Happy Holidays

--Ken
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Post by M6smitten »

My BMW tech says the US version will fit the Euro, that's what we are using for my car's update. I'll post pics when the work is done.
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Post by M6smitten »

Stoffie wrote:I just checked BMW Classic's Online Shop Teilesuche (german version) and the part is in the list and has a list price of 199.68€ so I guess it's available for ordering ?

I've added a screenshot as attachment to this post (hope you can see it). Nevermind the Germand and Dutch (can't seem to change it).

BMW Classic Deutschland Online Shop Teilesuche
Here is the update.

#26 is the dual-chain rail and does fit the Euro. You will need to order the dual-chain bolt #19 (11111308657).

The only problem is the upper guide#27 (11311308550). BMW has superseded the single chain guide for this part. It doesn't fit. Some machining the the guide bolt holes AND valve cover are needed.
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Post by ericono »

Other than the bolt, the dual chain guide rail works with no issues on the single chain M88? No issues since installation?

Thanks,

Eric
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Post by M6smitten »

ericono wrote:Other than the bolt, the dual chain guide rail works with no issues on the single chain M88? No issues since installation?

Thanks,

Eric
No issues. Just peace of mind knowing it's done.
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Post by ericono »

Good to know. Looks like I'll be following the same route.

Thanks for the feedback,

Eric
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Post by Sixracer1 »

I have an M635 with about 55k miles and every once in a while I read about timing chain guides and it keeps me up at night. This is certainly going to give me nightmares!
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Post by M6smitten »

This gave me many sleepless nights too.
My car had 82k on it when I updated the chain and tension guides. To tell you the truth, once we got them out, they were fine; The guides had very little wear. I'll see if I still have the old guides to post a pic.
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Post by wattsmonkey »

I'll sort out a proper post on this, but I've literally just finished the chain job on my M. Not finished putting the cover etc back on yet, but hopefully plain sailing from here. This is a "Euro" M88/3 (i.e. single-row chain) engine.

The upper rail had very little wear.

The main rail was significantly worn, with grooves dug into the plastic by the outer edges of the chain.

The top sprockets were hardly worn.

The lower sprocket was significantly worn.

The chain DOES appear to have stretched.

There was play in the idler sprocket.

The top rail was hardly worn.

The oil pump chain appears to have stretched.

The oil pump sprocket was significantly worn.

I am happy to have done the above for peace of mind, but I am confident that my engine was in no danger of grenading in the foreseeable future!

As I say, a separate post will be forthcoming, but it's only the oil pump drive that raised an eyebrow. Real OEM does not tally with my car on this front: I should have the later, post 6/86 type for my 9/86 build car, with the smaller sprocket and the tensioner. I don't. Mine has the older type, with the larger sprocket and no tensioner. I can certainly see why BMW elected to change the design - the chain flaps around like a wizard's sleeve with only a small amount of wear, which presumably accelerates the same.

So, I am no help at all with your conundrum, but until you take it apart you just don't know. Peace of mind does carry a hefty premium: the parts cost me circa £1,500 (roughly $2,400)

Cheers,

Rob
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Post by M6smitten »

wattsmonkey wrote:I'll sort out a proper post on this, but I've literally just finished the chain job on my M. Not finished putting the cover etc back on yet, but hopefully plain sailing from here. This is a "Euro" M88/3 (i.e. single-row chain) engine.

The upper rail had very little wear.

The main rail was significantly worn, with grooves dug into the plastic by the outer edges of the chain.

The top sprockets were hardly worn.

The lower sprocket was significantly worn.

The chain DOES appear to have stretched.

There was play in the idler sprocket.

The top rail was hardly worn.

The oil pump chain appears to have stretched.

The oil pump sprocket was significantly worn.

I am happy to have done the above for peace of mind, but I am confident that my engine was in no danger of grenading in the foreseeable future!

As I say, a separate post will be forthcoming, but it's only the oil pump drive that raised an eyebrow. Real OEM does not tally with my car on this front: I should have the later, post 6/86 type for my 9/86 build car, with the smaller sprocket and the tensioner. I don't. Mine has the older type, with the larger sprocket and no tensioner. I can certainly see why BMW elected to change the design - the chain flaps around like a wizard's sleeve with only a small amount of wear, which presumably accelerates the same.

So, I am no help at all with your conundrum, but until you take it apart you just don't know. Peace of mind does carry a hefty premium: the parts cost me circa £1,500 (roughly $2,400)

Cheers,

Rob
Liked your post Rob. What was the mileage?
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Post by Stoffie »

Great info Rob!

Still contemplating whether to do mine.

Last time I checked the parts were about 1500 euro.

What did you use to substitute for the unobtanium chain guide? The one for the duplex chain?

Looking forward to more info about the oilpump sprocket issue!
The M88/3 was all about power, no cats. At idle the raw fuel from the exhaust will make your eyes water like an old V-8 powered muscle car's exhaust did.
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