HID's

dwcains · Post by **dwcains** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:58 pm

Those Speaker LED headlights are freaking amazing, and I had a set of the 7" units in my '92 Alfa, but they were the chrome finish instead of the black. They were almost $700 ~ 2 years ago for the pair. They just looked out of place on that car, though, so I sold them to friend who's got several motorcycles. I put in a pair or uber-rare and $$$ Marchal Amplilux lights I've been saving, and I'm almost afraid to drive with them because they're not replaceable:

The way i wired the lights on my 635 is I used the original low beam and high beam circuits from the driver's side as triggers for the new relays, and the passenger side wiring has been cut and capped off. My car was also originally wired for 4 H1 lights, as a Euro, because some of those cars didn't have the dual filament H4 outer lights, so there is a 3rd relay and circuit for my H4 high beams, triggered from the H1 inner high beams. Sounds more complicated than it really is. All the wiring is wrapped in the original German tape, so it looks OEM except for the ceramic sockets. I had to rewire the front signals and parking lights, too, because they were hacked during the Federalization procedures back in '85.

As for the check light system, I don't get a warning for the low beams, but I probably should - don't know why, and I should also be getting one for the taillights, because they're LEDs. But I do get a warning for the license plate and brake lights, which are also LEDs. Inconsistent, I know. I'll just disable them when I get around to it.

You car may not need new relays, and you may just be able to replace the burned wires and sockets. When I had my '88 M3 and '88 M5 (both as new cars), I installed the Hella H4/H1 and has no issues. My '85 635 seems to have had lesser-quality original wiring. This is my first 635, and I've only had it since August '14, so I haven't seen the wiring on newer 6's.

dwcains · Post by **dwcains** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:36 pm

Interesting article on voltage drop and light output for stock v. upgraded lights with stock v. upgraded wiring.

http://www.mye28.com/tech/rods_pages/id13.html

And, another about Euro headlight install (scroll about halfway down the page):

http://www.mye28.com/tech/rods_pages/id6.html

hornhospital · Post by **hornhospital** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:05 pm

Da_Hose wrote:The $350 price tag per unit is scary though (that's $1000 in headlights)

Tell me how you added $350 plus $350 (two lights) or $350 x 4 (4 lights) and got $1000.

Da_Hose · Post by **Da_Hose** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:56 pm

It's a ball park number, ya smart alec.

I'll put a "+" sign on the end next time, you nit-picker.

I figure that buying a pair is typical and would be full price. If I was buying 4 of them, I would hunt for the best pricing and haggle directly with the vendor.

I just think they look way too space-ship for an E24. Although I did stumble across these.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013KQ ... _i=desktop

That style of light is still kind of space ship looking, but being all black they might blend in better with the grille/front end.

Jose

arif · Post by **arif** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:03 am

One thing I have noticed with all of these headlights everyone is showing is that none of them have the adjusting tabs at the back. What is your way around this?

Da_Hose · Post by **Da_Hose** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:43 am

Ideally, the headlights will screw into the stock headlight buckets with the OEM trim rings and use the built in adjusters.

Is that what you are asking?

Jose

dwcains · Post by **dwcains** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:16 am

arif wrote:One thing I have noticed with all of these headlights everyone is showing is that none of them have the adjusting tabs at the back. What is your way around this?

On the rear of each headlight bracket assembly (for teh US sealed beams, or Euro non-projectors) has 4 white plastic knobs (2 for each light). I haven't seen a set of projectors in a very long time, so I can't recall their adjustment method. Here's one oy spares:

Brucey · Post by **Brucey** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:27 am

arif wrote:Hey Jose,
I haven't considered them only because I didn't know about them. I'll check them out. If they don't give out check warning lights and light up the road without blinding everyone else around it has to be a no brainer.

Is it plug and play? Can I use these for both high and low beams?

you may not 'know anyone that has been refused an MOT' but that does not make fitting HIDs or LEDs into your housings legal. In fact it definitely isn't legal; your headlights are type-approved for use with bulbs that meet the relevant standards and HID/LEDs don't.

Worst case is that you have a prang and the insurers decide that your car 'isn't roadworthy' or that you have 'undeclared modifications' or somesuch. They are ba*tards and will try it on like that, and it doesn't matter if the items concerned were in any way related to the prang or not.

HIDs can be cheap crap (unreliable, wrong colour temperature, bad emitter positioning = rubbish beam) and note that when HIDs are fitted in new cars it is only with headlight adjusters that work and/or self-levelling suspension. If you don't have either then if you do have a brighter dip beam (without which you are just wasting your time) then you are just going to be a bloody menace to other road users.

LED drop in bulbs are just not there yet and may never be. Last time I looked they didn't have the power (and may never do because the mountings are not designed to dissipate heat in the right way - the one thing LEDS don't like is excess heat) - and again the emitters are just in the wrong place to give the right beam shape with reflectors meant for H1 or H4 bulbs.

If you just want more light then fit driving lights and fit better bulbs in the extant headlamps; you can get (illegal) high power bulbs but you can also get legal (and wiring harness-friendly) bulbs that give more light output for the same power.

Another point that is worth noting is that the voltage regulator is probably set to 13.8V. Modern batteries prefer 14.2V and with a suitable 14.2V regulator, the lights work better too.

Personally I think that a lot of modern cars with LED lights end up looking like 'a council house at Christmas time' as one wag put it. So its not for me, not unless the whole unit can be changed for something that is all designed to work together perhaps like the round units shown above.

It would be easy to 'improve' an E24 in all kinds of ways that are just going to look stupid in a year or two.... think 'tattoed lip liner on the Mona Lisa' ... that kind of thing....

cheers

jacko · Post by **jacko** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:45 am

From Daniel Sterns within the past year.

" Before you spend a whackload of cash, try an easy and cheap
first stage that will wring a great deal more light out of
the lows and highs. Replace your existing 9006/HB4 (low
beam) bulbs with 9012 (HIR2) bulbs,
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00480N18G/?tag=2402507-20

The new bulbs are not some tinted or overwattage item. They
are a newer, higher-efficacy design (Efficacy is the amount
of light out versus the amount of electricity in, expressed
as lumens per watt).

Here's the comparison of these bulbs to standard and
high-performance 9006 (HB4) bulbs. A "+50" would be a
Philips Vision Plus or GE Night Hawk. A
"+80" would be a Philips Xtreme Power:

Regular 9006- 12.8V, 55W,Â 1000 lumens, 875 hours

9006+50- 12.8V, 55W,Â 1090 lumens, 300 hours

9006+80- 12.8V, 55W,Â 1120 lumens, 275 hours

HIR2 (9012)- 12.8V, 55W,Â 1875 lumens, 1400 hours

So compared to standard bulbs, you're looking at 88 percent
more light
from the low beams. The beam pattern will not change, but
there will be considerably more light within the beam pattern.

These bulbs are not only very much more effective but also
very much more
cost-effective compared to a tarted-up 9005 or 9006 with
blue colored
glass (PIAA and Sylvania Silverstar come to mind) that
doesn't produce
more light and has a very short lifespan.

The high beam version is
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00480J5CW/?tag=2402507-20 . Here's
the comparison:

Regular HB3 (9005)- 12.8V, 65W, 1700 lumens, 320 hours

HIR1 (9011)- 12.8V, 65W, 2530 lumens, 320 hours

The 9011 and 9012 bulbs have a double-wide top ear on the
plastic bulb base, this is
to comply with the law requiring different bulbs to have
different bases.
The extra-wide plastic top ear is easily trimmed or filed to
make the bulb
fit your headlamp's bulb receptacle. Once that's done, they
go directly
into the headlamp, and the existing sockets snap on. Please see
http://dastern.torque.net/Mods/HIRmod.html for details.
Disregard Amazon's warning that the bulbs won't fit your car.

Do not use 9011 in a lamp originally designed to accept a
9006 bulb, it's neither safe nor wise. And most fog lamps
cannot effectively focus the large amount of light from a
9012 or 9011 bulb without creating dangerous (and illegal)
levels of glare regardless of lamp aim.

Of course, your headlamps _must_ be aimed carefully and
correctly per
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/aim/aim.html with
any bulbs, but
especially with these high-output bulbs. Yours are the
"mechanical aim" type, but can accurately be set optically
using the "VOR" specification at the linked page.

"

dwcains · Post by **dwcains** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:05 am

I'd like to see some HIRs to replace my car's H4 and H1 bulbs. I've seen them for sale on eBay and some fly-by-night sites, but unless they're made by Philips, Toshiba, Sylvania, etc. I'm not that gullible. Not paying for shitty Chinese knockoffs. Unfortunately, I don't think there's much of a market for those bulb sizes anymore, so I may be out of luck. I'm not unhappy with the Sylvania Silverstar's, though, which came with the car. I just had to upgrade the wiring.

jacko · Post by **jacko** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:23 am

Auto Zone, Pep Boys, etc. Not that hard to find.

dwcains · Post by **dwcains** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:25 am

What? I think you misunderstood me. I'm not looking for quartz-halogen H4 or H1 bulbs, I'm looking for their HIR equivalents.

hornhospital · Post by **hornhospital** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:57 am

Pep Boys:

https://www.pepboys.com/product/details/534716/01600

and

https://www.pepboys.com/product/details/930200/01600

baders · Post by **baders** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:59 am

I have to say I agree with Brucey. You should look very hard to stay within the accepted local regulations. Some rules have a valid safety purpose, and car headlights are certainly one of these. Take a read of my headlight adventures here viewtopic.php?t=24961&start=0&postdays= ... peaker+led

ron · Post by **ron** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:39 am

A UK L/H projector set-up with wiper motor (plastic bucket).

A UK L/H non-projector set-up with wiper motor (steel bucket).

Notice totally different adjusters.

Brucey · Post by **Brucey** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:02 am

BTW a 6/87- UK spec E24 uses x4 H1 type bulbs, right?

The 'standard' 55W H1 bulbs produce light at voltage according to the following specifications;

- In the USA; 1410 lumens +/- 15% @ 12.8V
- In Europe; 1550 lumens +/- 15% @ 13.2V (ECE reg 37)

In practice this amounts to pretty much the same thing, so bulbs are made to meet both specs. In addition note that once you factor in that your voltage will actually be 13.8V or 14.2V with the engine running then even a 'standard bulb' is most likely going to kick out the thick end of 1700 lumens.

BTW some LED 'H1 bulbs' I have seen were described as 'far brighter than standard bulbs' and 'better in every way' but when you read the specs it says; Light output = 40.2 lumens.....

cheers

dwcains · Post by **dwcains** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:22 pm

hornhospital wrote:Pep Boys:

https://www.pepboys.com/product/details/534716/01600

and

https://www.pepboys.com/product/details/930200/01600

I'm afraid neither of those bulbs will fit in with an H4 or H1 housing.

HIR1 (9011) can be used in place of HB3 (9005), while the HIR2 (9012) will fit the HB4 (9006) applications, but minor trimming is required of the plastic tabs in both cases.

An H4 replacement bulb, at a minimum, needs a shield on its filament so only the top half of the headlight housing is used to produce a low-beam. So, a single filament would be OK, assuming one could live without the H4 high beam function, unless they make a dual filament HIR bulb. There are Chinese-made ones out there, though.

The problem with the H1 housing is that the opening for the bulb is so small, and the bulb is held in position with a pin, rather than radial tabs. I haven't seen any H1 knockpffs, yet, but even if, I'm only buying German bulbs.

hornhospital · Post by **hornhospital** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:41 pm

According to Daniel Sterns, those ARE the equivalent bulbs in HIR versions. He notes the tabs will have to be trimmed, but they do fit the housings after that simple modification. As to shielding the filament, I don't believe the HID versions are shielded. Why would the HIR version need it?

I was just trying to be helpful, Dean. You stated the bulbs (HIR versions) weren't available at Pep Boys, but they are. I thought maybe you had looked but couldn't find them. Sorry!

dwcains · Post by **dwcains** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:42 pm

Hi Ken:

I can't find any reference from Stern regarding HIR for my H4/H1 setup, but I just sent him an email, so we'll see what he replies. I appreciate any replies, in fact, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but all this bulb nomenclature can be confusing, and this thread should be a reference, and hopefully clear up that confusion. So, thanks for your reply with the links.

This is what the H4 and H1 housings look like, for those who haven't taken theirs apart. This is the H4 - just the large opening, with no base or sealing area for the o-ring on either of the newer-style Haligen or HIR bulbs:

And here's the H1 - with its tiny recessed opening for the bulb, and there's an internal partial shield the bulb fits into:

So, it should be obvious, an HIR1 or HIR2 bulb, regardless of whether or not you trim the tabs. just isn't going to fit these older light housings.

I'll be sure to post with Daniel Stern's reply regarding HIRs for this application, but I'm not expecting good news.

As an aside, I have these out of the car because they were getting that milky internal coating which always seems to happen with these non-sealed units, so I gave them a good washing, and now they're nice and clear again:

m6dave · Post by **m6dave** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:06 pm

Dean
are these what you are looking for?
http://www.narva.com.au/products/browse ... nce-globes

dwcains · Post by **dwcains** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:29 pm

Not really. The HIR bulbs are different than just high-output halogens. Narva makes good bulbs, but I'm not sure how much different/better they are than what I already have:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012E ... 1_3&sr=8-3

I'm not unhappy with these Sylvania bulbs, but if the HIRs are markedly better, and not more $ and don't draw more current, that seems like the way to go. The extra high output halogens don't have a very long life, which is another issue the HIRs are not supposed to have.

Thanks for the link.

Brucey · Post by **Brucey** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:59 pm

this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HIR-AUTOMOTIVE- ... 1717826779

is an H1-fit HIR type bulb, but there is scant detail, little in the way of specifications etc. i.e. they might be crap.

There are H4-fit HIR bulbs on e-bay but they really do look crap; single filament with or without a reflector plate. So dip or main, not both like you need in a US-spec H4/H1 setup.

A UK/Australian H1 only setup is a bit easier I suppose...

BTW it should be mentioned that new bulbs are always brighter than well-used ones anyway; they go dim over time.

cheers

dwcains · Post by **dwcains** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:05 am

Thanks, Brucey. Saw those, as well as the H4's, and I'll pass.

Did you see this feedback from a customer: "Bulbs DEFECTIVE & CHEAP rip offs! NOT real HIRs! Seller wouldn't refund!! BEWARE"

dwcains · Post by **dwcains** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:41 pm

Here's the info I received from Daniel Stern Lighting:

Hi, Dean.

> Hi Daniel:
>
> Do you have any info about HIR bulbs to fit in the H4 and H1
> headlight housings

No such bulbs exist. There are two (and only two) legitimate HIR bulb types. One, designated HIR2 or 9012, can be effectively and safely used as an upgrade in certain headlamps originally designed to accept an HB4 (9006) bulb. The other, designated HIR1 or 9011, can be effectively and safely used as an upgrade in most headlamps orgiinally designed for an HB3 (9005) bulb.

> on my BMW E24?

Which (exact, specific) H4 and H1 lamps are you running in your E24? H4 is inherently very inefficient on low beam in all but very large headlamps; if your goal is a substantial improvement in nighttime seeing, probably a change to better-than-H4 low beams, at least, is the right way to go. More detail on request.

Cheers DS

Brucey · Post by **Brucey** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:15 pm

dwcains wrote:Thanks, Brucey. Saw those, as well as the H4's, and I'll pass.

Did you see this feedback from a customer: "Bulbs DEFECTIVE & CHEAP rip offs! NOT real HIRs! Seller wouldn't refund!! BEWARE"

no I didn't bother reading that far, my spidey sense had already told me enough.

But it does at least mean that someone out there has tried to make the right thing, which is slightly better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick I suppose...

I wonder what would happen if you tried to modify a H1 shell to accept one of the common HIR bulb sizes? I wonder if it is possible to get the filament in the right place?

Thinking about it some H1 bulbs locate on the outer flange at the base of the bulb; if so the centre through hole in the mounting could be larger and it oughtn't be a big problem. If it is a question of spacing the new HIR bulb backwards (maybe it isn't?) then an adaptor of some kind might do it?

-just a thought...

edit; I couldn't find the exact dimensions but this image

http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.M5dd ... 9&rs=0&p=0

suggests that the heights are all wrong; a 9012 is shorter so would have to go through the mounting for an H1 entirely in order to give the right beam shape. So it is pretty much a non-starter unless you are prepared to do some quite serious metalwork.

cheers