HID's

arif · Post by **arif** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:14 am

Hi everyone,
I've done a search on the forum about HID's and have concluded that I need 9005 (high beam) and 9006 (low beam) hid's. This is as I want to convert both headlights.

Firstly is the above conclusion correct?

also if the above is correct are these hid's suitable, plug and play and won't give any check lights?

9005 and 9006 (HB4)
http://www.amazon.com/Zenex-Conversion- ... B000YQKOU6

thanks in advance.
Arif

dwcains · Post by **dwcains** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:20 am

I can't answer your question about the check light, but I will say I've never seen one of these conversions work out well. The problem is that the filament of the new bulb is in a different location, or orientation, within the headlamp housing. Because the reflector has been designed for the original filament placement, there's no telling how much the light output and beam pattern are negatively affected. You'll often get a glary beam with uneven light dispersion and hotspots. Not great for driving, and offensive to oncoming drivers.

A better idea is upgrading the small gauge factory wiring and allowing the maximum amount of current to supply the original, or higher wattage, halogen bulbs. There are some very good lighting threads on mye28.com you may want to search for.

baders · Post by **baders** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:07 am

Not sure about GB, but here installation of HIDs in stock positions in cars is a big Authoritae no, no. You might want to check local regulations ? It's why I went to so much trouble and expense to get original Hella lights.

dwcains · Post by **dwcains** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:59 am

For the reasons I mentioned, no doubt. iMO, the HID kits are often well-reviewed because the users are initially impressed by the color and brightness, but really don't have a clue what an effective headlight beam should look like. Studies have also shown that a color temp of 4300K is more effective than the commonly-sold 6000K (or even higher) HIDs.

The Hella lights are very effective, as are the similar models from Cibie. The beam pattern is much broader and more even than the HIDs in either my Nissan 350Z or my wife's Acura (Honda) TL-S. Overall, I prefer the Hella lights, although the HIDs are a bit brighter in their hot spot.

jacko · Post by **jacko** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:42 am

HIR bulbs.

9011 & 9012. just a few minor mods to the mounting lips.

Good filament location, more light, less current. No blinding oncoming cars.

Da_Hose · Post by **Da_Hose** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:16 am

I have some feedback. I JUST changed out the "upgraded" projector headlamps for the stock sealed beam units. Here is what the stock bulb looks like (on the right) compared to the "upgraded" H3 bulbed projector.

Yes, your eyes do not deceive. The stock sealed unit is WAY brighter than the projector. Not only that, the headlight circuit senses the bulbs in the circuit. I don't know what it is looking for, but I do know that the H3 bulbs cause fault lights periodically.

So the "upgrade" to the headlights is not only dimmer than stock, it causes faults in the OBC. Unless someone else figures out a magic solution, I will stick with the stock, and MUCH less expensive sealed beam bulbs, thank you very much.

Jose

arif · Post by **arif** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:34 am

Thank you all for your responses. It all makes for interesting reading.

I am aware of the blinding oncoming traffic issue hids can cause and alignment issues but after reading the below thread I thought there was finally a good set of hids out there,

viewtopic.php?t=10555&highlight=hids

I've looked for the Hellas stated in that thread but am finding it difficult to locate them in stock. The hids in my link at the start of this thread seemed like a viable alternative as they come with a 3 year warranty so I assumed are not the cheapo Chinese make that blind everyone on the road.

I have also considered just changing the bulbs to brighter, whiter ones but don't fancy the idea of messing around with thicker gauge wire.

dwcains · Post by **dwcains** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:30 pm

Da_Hose wrote:I have some feedback. I JUST changed out the "upgraded" projector headlamps for the stock sealed beam units. Here is what the stock bulb looks like (on the right) compared to the "upgraded" H3 bulbed projector.

Yes, your eyes do not deceive. The stock sealed unit is WAY brighter than the projector. Not only that, the headlight circuit senses the bulbs in the circuit. I don't know what it is looking for, but I do know that the H3 bulbs cause fault lights periodically.

So the "upgrade" to the headlights is not only dimmer than stock, it causes faults in the OBC. Unless someone else figures out a magic solution, I will stick with the stock, and MUCH less expensive sealed beam bulbs, thank you very much.

Jose

I think more details are required. Which new headlights and bulbs did you install? Something is obviously not right. I don't know of any headlights in that size to accept an H3 bulb - only H1 or H4. The fogs take an H3, though.

dwcains · Post by **dwcains** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:46 pm

arif wrote:Thank you all for your responses. It all makes for interesting reading.

I am aware of the blinding oncoming traffic issue hids can cause and alignment issues but after reading the below thread I thought there was finally a good set of hids out there,

viewtopic.php?t=10555&highlight=hids

I've looked for the Hellas stated in that thread but am finding it difficult to locate them in stock. The hids in my link at the start of this thread seemed like a viable alternative as they come with a 3 year warranty so I assumed are not the cheapo Chinese make that blind everyone on the road.

I have also considered just changing the bulbs to brighter, whiter ones but don't fancy the idea of messing around with thicker gauge wire.

A couple of things. First, your car may have better wiring than my '85, since you've got factory projectors. The old wiring is pitifully undersized. My car is also a Euro which was "federalized" during import to the US, and had extra connections and even more low-quality wire spliced into the system.

Second, to convert from the projector system to the older type Hella H1/H4 lights involves changing out all the headlight mounting buckets and associated hardware, along with modification of the headlight sockets. Hellas for RHD cars are also hard to come by and more pricey than their LHD counterparts.

I'd agree that the HIR bulbs are a nice upgrade, although make sure you're getting the genuine articles. There are knockoffs/fakes already in the market, and obviously those should be avoided. Toshiba and Philips make quality HIRs.

Finally, those HIDs you were looking at are most definitely Chinese-made, and I've been down that road with replacement bulbs tried in my wife's Acura. The only good HIDs come from German manufacturers Philips, Orsam, and Sylvania, as well as the Japanese-made Morimoto. We went through 2 sets of Cjinese HIDs and neither had light output to match the OEM, and because of poor quality construction were impossible to properly aim. Finally spent the $$ and bought the 5000K Philips bulbs for the low beams and HIRs in the high beams.

Da_Hose · Post by **Da_Hose** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:29 pm

dwcains - The projector conversion was done by a PO, but I'll confirm the bulb that is installed. I have no idea what car the lights came off of, but a spare set of frames had to be chopped up to get them to go in. That is why I had to repair the wiring harness. The plug on that passenger headlight was blackened and melting though. Yikes!

Incidentally. I bought a complete set of projectors/frames that were supposed to fit in my M6, but they absolutely do not. Now I need to figure out what the hell they actually fit and how to get rid of them.

All this just adds up to a pain in the ass. I have no desire to "modernize" the look of my car with projector lamps or angel eyes. Particularly if it doesn't really mean a significant improvement in lighting performance.

The ONE option I am still considering is a genuine upgrade of the fog lights. I am eyeballing some 6", LED light bars. Those things throw CRAZY amounts of light from a very small package that looks pretty easy to adapt into the stock locations.

Jose

dwcains · Post by **dwcains** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:41 pm

If you still have the original sealed beam buckets in the car, I'd just source a set of Hella H4's and H1's, and you'll be amazed at the difference. Sounds like you need some new wiring harnesses, though. That's what I put in my '88 E30 M3 when it was brand new, and it's what I have in my E24 now.

After I'd had the M3 for about a year, the '89's came in with the projector lights and there was a local wreck I was able to get the lights from. I swapped them into my M3, and after about a week went back to the Hella H4/H1 setup.

The only problem with LEDs is that there's no beam pattern, just light scattered all over. For a functional foglight, you want a low, wide beam, with a very sharp horizontal cutoff so the light doesn't illuminate the fog above the road surface. I've got these bulbs in mine, and they work great in the early morning Florida fog:

http://store.candlepower.com/tugoseyeh355.html

jacko · Post by **jacko** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:32 pm

...ask Daniel Stern Lighting.

Da_Hose · Post by **Da_Hose** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:35 pm

The projectors are a bodge job that can't be adjusted, they aren't something complete that was intended to fit correctly.

If you are using non-oem projectors, you aren't getting light warnings on your low beam circuit?

I have been looking at these light bars.

http://www.rigidindustries.com/led-lighting/106312

They are NOT cheap, but look like the best in the industry and their light pattern/brightness looks like exactly what you want in a driving/fog light. If can find something close to that level of quality and performance for less I might consider it, but the Rigid line looks like top tier lighting products.

I also stumbled across this one.
http://www.amazon.com/TMH-Shape-Degree- ... +light+bar

It doesn't seem as high quality a unit, but I think I could fit two of those in the fog lamp space. That could make for an insanely bright package with tremendous coverage.

Jose

baders · Post by **baders** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:40 pm

For arif. Looks like you live in GB ? What about your MOT ? Will HIDs cause problems there ? I sourced my Hellas (similar RHD, left road drive) from Genuine Parts GmbH. Not cheap, but they had them :) Put your exact part number in the search. If you have problems, let me know exactly what you car is.

http://eshop.original-teile.de/

arif · Post by **arif** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:00 am

Thanks baders. In regards to the MOT I have yet to hear from anyone I know having an MOT refused due to hid's.

I know the cheapo ones can have issues with dazzling road users on the other side but properly adjusted ones as far as I know haven't been an issue.

I can't find anything under hella on the website so would appreciate your help.

my car is a,
1989 635csi Highline
RHD
F303 XRU
Last 7 on the VIN: 8188547

thanks
Arif

baders · Post by **baders** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:29 am

Sorry, I thought you had an earlier car. OK, so you have ellipsoids;

High beam left - 63121385461 - EU46.40 - https://eshop.original-teile.de/index.p ... 3121385461

High beam right - 63121385462 - EU45.40 - https://eshop.original-teile.de/index.p ... 3121385462

Lamp lens left - 63121386775 - Not available GP GmbH.

Lamp lens right - 63121386786 - Not available GP GmbH.

Reflector right and left - 63121390301 - Not available GP GmbH.

RealOEM page; http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showpar ... Id=63_0046

Didn't Brucey dig up a supplier for ellipsoids previously ?

baders · Post by **baders** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:30 am

I guess my next question is; what is wrong with your existing head lights ?

arif · Post by **arif** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 am

baders thanks for all the info!

Is there nothing for the low/dipped beam? and do I need the lamp lens and reflectors?

The only thing wrong with my lights are that they are probably as bright as a candle

The condition of my headlight is fine it's just the actual light output is rubbish

Da_Hose · Post by **Da_Hose** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:04 am

That is exactly my experience, Arif. I still have the bodged, driver side projector in for the low beam. The housing is in fine shape and it actually is sort of aiming about right, but the light output is 1/2 that of the OEM, sealed beam unit on the passenger side. The melted connector on the passenger unit I took out tells me there is a lot more draw but WAY less output to the projector units.

Have you considered the newer H1 style CREE LED bulb replacements? If others are reporting no problems with the lighting circuit warning after changing out the bulbs, maybe the LED type are worth trying.

Jose

arif · Post by **arif** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:07 am

Hey Jose,
I haven't considered them only because I didn't know about them. I'll check them out. If they don't give out check warning lights and light up the road without blinding everyone else around it has to be a no brainer.

Is it plug and play? Can I use these for both high and low beams?

dwcains · Post by **dwcains** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:31 am

arif wrote:baders thanks for all the info! =D> :D

Is there nothing for the low/dipped beam? and do I need the lamp lens and reflectors?

The only thing wrong with my lights are that they are probably as bright as a candle :(

The condition of my headlight is fine it's just the actual light output is rubbish

I'll reiterate my recommendation (actually Jacko's) for the HIR bulbs.

dwcains · Post by **dwcains** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:58 am

Da_Hose wrote:The projectors are a bodge job that can't be adjusted, they aren't something complete that was intended to fit correctly.

If you are using non-oem projectors, you aren't getting light warnings on your low beam circuit?

I have been looking at these light bars.

http://www.rigidindustries.com/led-lighting/106312

They are NOT cheap, but look like the best in the industry and their light pattern/brightness looks like exactly what you want in a driving/fog light. If can find something close to that level of quality and performance for less I might consider it, but the Rigid line looks like top tier lighting products.

I also stumbled across this one.
http://www.amazon.com/TMH-Shape-Degree- ... +light+bar

It doesn't seem as high quality a unit, but I think I could fit two of those in the fog lamp space. That could make for an insanely bright package with tremendous coverage.

Jose

Are you looking to use these as primary lights, or just for open road driving with not much expected ongoing traffic? If it's the former, I think you really need to consider beam pattern, the avoidance of blinding oncoming drivers, and the ability to have hi and lo beams. I'm sure the LEDs from Rigid are super bright, but unless that's for off-road use, I can't see them being appropriate, but not having seen them in person, I could easily be wrong.

Those LEDs from Amazon are crap, and I have a set I tried as DRLs on my 350z. Very bright, but with a very scattered beam and no real distance. I had to take them off immediately, as just about every oncoming car flashed at me. I suspected as much when I saw them, and used 2-sided tape, so they came off easily.

The Cree H1 LED replacements, I suspect will have similar issues to those HID kits, again because the light source is in a different relation to the reflector, and not a 360-degree source like a filament.

IMO, trying to add new technology to an old reflector system isn't as simple as the guys selling LEDs, HIDs, etc. would like us to believe. The light has to be initially designed as a system, and certainly the HIDs and LEDs in new cars are.

Someone else mentioned Daniel Stern Lighting, and I'd also recommend exploring his site and reading his FAQs. He's been in the business forever, and I've never seen him offer bad advice in any forum or offer low-quality parts for sale.

Da_Hose · Post by **Da_Hose** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:43 am

Here is a lux chart showing how the standard E2 series disperses.

http://offroad.rigidindustries.com/site ... log/19.pdf

What is cool, is that Rigid has two models of SAE approved driving and fog lights in both the 6" class I was looking at and in a 4" too.

http://offroad.rigidindustries.com/products/sae

The 6" are $670 a pair. Ouch!

The 4" still hurt, but at $280 for the pair are in the realm of I would still consider them. They are also CRAZY bright.

In the bigger picture, I agree that slapping together old with new doesn't work out well for lighting. That is why I am back to OEM sealed bulb units. If I were POSITIVE that going to the LED H4 bulbs would not cause errors in my low beam OBC warning, I would consider installing new 5.75 glass lenses intended for H4 bulbs and try out these LED units.
http://www.amazon.com/Car-Rover-Headlig ... ds=h4+cree

Here is an example of a comparison between halogen H4's and the same type of CREE bulbs I linked above.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cLw1z-p8bA

Jose

dwcains · Post by **dwcains** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:15 am

With the rated wattage of those LED's, I don't think the check system will notice the difference from filament bulbs, so you're probably OK. I'm not at all convinced by that YouTube video with the motorcycle headlight, though. It doesn't show the beam pattern on a flat surface, so you can see the horizontal cutoff, although you can see a huge difference in the light pattern between the bulb and LED, meaning the light source is in a different position. But, yeah, the LED is brighter, and I don't know what bulb they're using.

Why not the Hella H4/H1 setup that was OEM in Europe before the projectors came out? It's certainly a well-proven setup, and if you have the original sealed beam buckets, it's all plug and play.

http://www.rallylights.com/hella-5-3-4- ... 79564.html

http://www.rallylights.com/hella-5-3-4- ... 71157.html

Those are the genuine Euro (ECE) versions, not the lesser DOT-approved versions sold by some vendors.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012U ... 1_6&sr=8-6

http://www.amazon.com/SYLVANIA-XtraVisi ... ds=h1+bulb

Sounds like you'll need to fix some burned wiring, too. If you throw adequate current at this setup, I don't think you'll see too much better, at least I haven't, even on new cars with OEM HIDs. Mine are wired with 30-amp relays, ceramic sockets, and 14 gauge wire direct to the battery, and for best performance, that's what you need. The original wiring on my car looks like 18 gauge, which was quite a surprise.

The Hella Bifocal H1's and Cibie CSR's are a little bit better, but almost impossible to find and $$$, especially the Cibie.

Da_Hose · Post by **Da_Hose** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:12 pm

I know about the Cibie's and tried to find a set for while. Definitely unobtainium.

I have also become more familiar with these modern lights that are designed from the ground up as LED.
http://www.jwspeaker.com/products/led-h ... evolution/

The $350 price tag per unit is scary though (that's $1000 in headlights) and the outer space look just doesn't seem right on an E24.

As long as it doesn't trip the fault sensor, I really like the idea of the H1/H4 setup. I didn't know the difference, but since they were an OEM option, will the existing wiring be OK with the setup?

I do have a new high amp circuit that I added for my air horns and uprated fan, so I can easily tap off that as a power source. It just surprises me that running off of relays you aren't seeing error codes.

If I can't scavenge up sealed units from all my parts boxes, now would seem as good a time as any to put together the complete ECE setup.

Jose

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