Valve Noise
Moderators: GRNSHRK, ron, bfons
Valve Noise
I wanted to ask those with much more experience because I am truly stumped.
Situation:
Just had a bunch of work done on the ///M635; timing chain and guides; head gasket. From the first engine start, intake 1 on cyl. 6 has had an annoyingly loud tick. The BMW Master Tech says to me like I'm a dumbass "Oh these motors are noisy and that's normal for solid lifters." I know they're (M88 and S38) noisy and very mechanical sounding but the valves NEVER ticked. And if it's normal noise, shouldn't all the valves be ticking?
Checklist:
I had the valve's adjusted and double checked and replaced the exhaust gaskets.
Question:
The BMW Tech ironically used an aftermarket shim, could the shim's metallurgy cause the excess noise?
Situation:
Just had a bunch of work done on the ///M635; timing chain and guides; head gasket. From the first engine start, intake 1 on cyl. 6 has had an annoyingly loud tick. The BMW Master Tech says to me like I'm a dumbass "Oh these motors are noisy and that's normal for solid lifters." I know they're (M88 and S38) noisy and very mechanical sounding but the valves NEVER ticked. And if it's normal noise, shouldn't all the valves be ticking?
Checklist:
I had the valve's adjusted and double checked and replaced the exhaust gaskets.
Question:
The BMW Tech ironically used an aftermarket shim, could the shim's metallurgy cause the excess noise?
2011 1 Series M
1974 2002 Turbo
1987 M6 (2/87) - Sold
1984 M635CSi (10/84) - Sold
2012 335 xi
2009 328 xi
1974 2002 Turbo
1987 M6 (2/87) - Sold
1984 M635CSi (10/84) - Sold
2012 335 xi
2009 328 xi
Re: Valve Noise
I would expect that only excessive lash, or maybe a really undersized shim (in terms of diameter) could cause a lot of ticking. If it is too thin, then it's obvious why it would tick. If the OD were too small, it could slide around in the top of the bucket. Not only would it make noise, but I would worry that it would beat the top edge of the bucket and break it, causing the shim to go flying around the cam tray. Can you post a recording? If so, then I could post a recording of mine and we could compare.
Jose
Jose
1987 M6 - My dream car
Re: Valve Noise
Jose, thx for the reply!The shims are the same diameter as the BMW parts. Ill post a vid.
2011 1 Series M
1974 2002 Turbo
1987 M6 (2/87) - Sold
1984 M635CSi (10/84) - Sold
2012 335 xi
2009 328 xi
1974 2002 Turbo
1987 M6 (2/87) - Sold
1984 M635CSi (10/84) - Sold
2012 335 xi
2009 328 xi
Re: Valve Noise
if you have checked the valve clearances on #1 then (with the caveat that only a grossly undersize shim -on thickness or diameter- would likely be noisy) then I'd be thinking about 'something else'.
Exhaust noise is one (you've checked)
Noisy injector is another, then we have;
Loose cam sprocket
Poor camchain tension + slight misfire on one cylinder causing chain slap
Slack in distributor drive dogs
Loose chain guide
Bad water pump
There are a few other things that might make a noise but are not likely to just happen in the course of such work, like a noisy little end bearing.
I'd suggest that a little work with the mechanic's stethoscope might point the way to the origin of the noise.
cheers
Exhaust noise is one (you've checked)
Noisy injector is another, then we have;
Loose cam sprocket
Poor camchain tension + slight misfire on one cylinder causing chain slap
Slack in distributor drive dogs
Loose chain guide
Bad water pump
There are a few other things that might make a noise but are not likely to just happen in the course of such work, like a noisy little end bearing.
I'd suggest that a little work with the mechanic's stethoscope might point the way to the origin of the noise.
cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Valve Noise
There goes Brucey, makin' sense again!
I have a stethoscope from Autozone or Pep Boys or wherever.
It definitely pinpoints the problem!
Good luck,,,,Greg
I have a stethoscope from Autozone or Pep Boys or wherever.
It definitely pinpoints the problem!
Good luck,,,,Greg
Hit the apex
in Long Beach, Cal
Buster/'82Euro6 Build Date 9/81
Rosallina/'80 528i Build Date 4/80
in Long Beach, Cal
Buster/'82Euro6 Build Date 9/81
Rosallina/'80 528i Build Date 4/80
Re: Valve Noise
Appreciate the replies!
I should've made clear that I have had a stethoscope on the source and it's pinpointed at exhaust 1 on cyl.6. Or the top of the engine at least.
I will work on a video, haven't had the chance to get the car really warm first.
I should've made clear that I have had a stethoscope on the source and it's pinpointed at exhaust 1 on cyl.6. Or the top of the engine at least.
I will work on a video, haven't had the chance to get the car really warm first.
2011 1 Series M
1974 2002 Turbo
1987 M6 (2/87) - Sold
1984 M635CSi (10/84) - Sold
2012 335 xi
2009 328 xi
1974 2002 Turbo
1987 M6 (2/87) - Sold
1984 M635CSi (10/84) - Sold
2012 335 xi
2009 328 xi
Re: Valve Noise
Tried to record a video but the motor is so loud it drowned out the tick. If the sound is near the top and valves are adjusted, I am going to pursue the injector route.
https://youtu.be/VF9YobmOMNc
https://youtu.be/mSBt3xlW-vg
https://youtu.be/VF9YobmOMNc
https://youtu.be/mSBt3xlW-vg
2011 1 Series M
1974 2002 Turbo
1987 M6 (2/87) - Sold
1984 M635CSi (10/84) - Sold
2012 335 xi
2009 328 xi
1974 2002 Turbo
1987 M6 (2/87) - Sold
1984 M635CSi (10/84) - Sold
2012 335 xi
2009 328 xi
Re: Valve Noise
an injector tick is normally quite easy to distinguish from other noises because there should be an overrun fuel cutoff above a certain rpm (i.e. when the TPS is 'closed' and the rpms are above the set point); thus when revved up a bit, on the overrun the tick should disappear briefly and then return once the engine settles to idle.
If you have two mechanic's stethoscopes then you can do all kinds of clever things, e.g. 'listen and compare' two noises at once, so one on an injector and another on the valve cover should tell you if it is one and the same noise or not. Similarly the exhaust valve on #1 opens and closes at about the same time as the inlet on #6 and similarly the exhaust on #6 and inlet on #1.
cheers
If you have two mechanic's stethoscopes then you can do all kinds of clever things, e.g. 'listen and compare' two noises at once, so one on an injector and another on the valve cover should tell you if it is one and the same noise or not. Similarly the exhaust valve on #1 opens and closes at about the same time as the inlet on #6 and similarly the exhaust on #6 and inlet on #1.
cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Valve Noise
Ant chance you guys watched the videos I linked to?
2011 1 Series M
1974 2002 Turbo
1987 M6 (2/87) - Sold
1984 M635CSi (10/84) - Sold
2012 335 xi
2009 328 xi
1974 2002 Turbo
1987 M6 (2/87) - Sold
1984 M635CSi (10/84) - Sold
2012 335 xi
2009 328 xi
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Re: Valve Noise
I looked at both of them, but there was no sound!
- hornhospital
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Re: Valve Noise
I looked (and listened) to both of them, and the the noise sounds like normal valve tick to me.
Pod, there's sound with them. Don't know why you couldn't hear it. Actually pretty loud on the first one in the engine compartment.
Pod, there's sound with them. Don't know why you couldn't hear it. Actually pretty loud on the first one in the engine compartment.
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
Re: Valve Noise
I took a listen and also don't seem to hear anything totally out of the ordinary. I will record mine and post it for comparison.
Jose
Jose
1987 M6 - My dream car
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Re: Valve Noise
Just got a replacement PC and for some reason the speakers aren't working. Anyway, got to use the headphones and could hear the noise. IMO it is rather noisy, bearing in mind the engine has just been worked on. If it was my car, I would be concerned as well.hornhospital wrote:I looked (and listened) to both of them, and the the noise sounds like normal valve tick to me.
Pod, there's sound with them. Don't know why you couldn't hear it. Actually pretty loud on the first one in the engine compartment.
Since you've had someone else do the work, you don't know exactly what he's done.That's the problem with not doing it yourself! It it was me in this situation, I'd re-do the valve shims. If that made no difference, I'd re-do the entire job....but that's just me
Either that, or live with it as it would appear your mechanic isn't bothered. But then, he's done the work and been paid, so why would he wish to re-visit it?
Re: Valve Noise
this is the kind of thing that would drive me nuts and if I've done the job myself at least I know for sure what has been done. I haven't listened to the noises carefully but it is difficult (impossible in fact) to say for sure what is 'normal' and what isn't from a video.Pod wrote: ....Since you've had someone else do the work, you don't know exactly what he's done.That's the problem with not doing it yourself! It it was me in this situation, I'd re-do the valve shims. If that made no difference, I'd re-do the entire job....but that's just me
Either that, or live with it as it would appear your mechanic isn't bothered. But then, he's done the work and been paid, so why would he wish to re-visit it?
Unfortunately there are many possible reasons why your top end could be noisy now (but it wasn't before) and a lot of them have to do with human nature and not all the nice bits either.
Your guy may well think he has done a super job or he could have just screwed up (and either know it or not). The problem with this job is that they probably don't have a shim kit in stock so they need to measure the clearances, take the shims out, measure the existing shims, and then spend a little while working out which shims can be swapped around and which need to be replaced with new ones. They then need to order the new shims, wait for them to be delivered, and then finish the job.
Now you don't need to be a towering genius to work out that if the guy has screwed up his sums and (say) his boss is on his back about why the job is taking so long and why this (low paying) job involves this (old) car cluttering up the workshop for days when they could be minting it on all kinds of better paying jobs etc etc then your man might well be under pressure to get the thing out of the door any which way he can rather than wait another day or two for the right shims to turn up and do it properly. Once he's started down that route for those reasons, he ain't going to change course in a hurry. You can ask him to 'reheck the clearances' but if he knows what he's done already he isn't going to do that or admit that he knows what he has done etc.
Now you may think this is a bleak outlook on human nature, and maybe it is. But I can tell you for a fact that it is one informed by personal experience. In addition I've known guys that have been 'trained' in main dealers and whilst they are (hopefully) not all like that a lot of them are basically concerned with the bottom line first and customer satisfaction a distant second. Line #1 is stonewalling; if a customer presents them with irrefutable proof that they have screwed up the workshop manager will make effusive apologies and assure you that the person responsible will be 'dealt with'. This is a crock of sh*t of course; this mealy-mouthed sod is the one that told him to do it in the first place....
So if you think the engine is noisy now I think you at least need to get the valve clearances checked by someone you trust, and then take it from there.
-just my two pence worth-
cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Valve Noise
roger that! Thanks gentlemen, I ll get the valves checked by a shop which specializes in older bimmers.
2011 1 Series M
1974 2002 Turbo
1987 M6 (2/87) - Sold
1984 M635CSi (10/84) - Sold
2012 335 xi
2009 328 xi
1974 2002 Turbo
1987 M6 (2/87) - Sold
1984 M635CSi (10/84) - Sold
2012 335 xi
2009 328 xi
Re: Valve Noise
I'm sorry you didn't take it there in the first place!
BTW; why didn't you go there first? Convenience?
Good luck & please let us know the outcome?
BTW; why didn't you go there first? Convenience?
Good luck & please let us know the outcome?
Hit the apex
in Long Beach, Cal
Buster/'82Euro6 Build Date 9/81
Rosallina/'80 528i Build Date 4/80
in Long Beach, Cal
Buster/'82Euro6 Build Date 9/81
Rosallina/'80 528i Build Date 4/80
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- Platinum Member
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- Location: usually in the barn, Kent, England.
Re: Valve Noise
................and if they fix it, send the bill to the first shopM6smitten wrote:roger that! Thanks gentlemen, I ll get the valves checked by a shop which specializes in older bimmers.
- Hefeweizen
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Re: Valve Noise
Take your car to Winslow in Colorado Springs
Rainer
03 330Xi (DD)
85 635CSi (RIP 3 May 19)
80 633CSi (Red Euro, Project)
"If you think a good European mechanic is expensive, try a bad one!"
03 330Xi (DD)
85 635CSi (RIP 3 May 19)
80 633CSi (Red Euro, Project)
"If you think a good European mechanic is expensive, try a bad one!"
Re: Valve Noise
Any luck getting this resolved Aaron?
http://www.Drive4Corners.com
'79 635CSi Revival
'80 635CSi
'83 633CSi Callaway Turbo continued as 1988 535is Turbo
SOLD: '81 635CSi/A
'79 635CSi Revival
'80 635CSi
'83 633CSi Callaway Turbo continued as 1988 535is Turbo
SOLD: '81 635CSi/A
Re: Valve Noise
In an effort to hunt down the tick, I replaced the fuel injectors today. BMW Mobile Trad. sent me a re manufactured set (GB Remanufacturing 832-12101) which is supposed to be BMW Part #13641273272. The car runs really lumpy now and feels like its missing. I researched BC and found the correct injector should be the following-
" (L) 201 273 272 all M6 and M635 (055 and 079 ECU's) " - {Low impedance} but BMW Mobile Trad couldn't verify that what they had sent was correct impedance and flow. Although he did say the remanufactured injectors were 2.4 ohm.
So I guess my question: is this the correct impedance? Am I missing something else?
All the compatibility lists show post 87 M6 and M5- no Euros. And why Does BMW Mobile Trad list the M635 as having an S38 v. M88?
Update****
So I ohmed the old injectors and they are 2.4. So just waiting on confirmation the new are also 2.4. Edit* I should've put a stethoscope on each earlier to see if they're all firing. Will do in the morning
" (L) 201 273 272 all M6 and M635 (055 and 079 ECU's) " - {Low impedance} but BMW Mobile Trad couldn't verify that what they had sent was correct impedance and flow. Although he did say the remanufactured injectors were 2.4 ohm.
So I guess my question: is this the correct impedance? Am I missing something else?
All the compatibility lists show post 87 M6 and M5- no Euros. And why Does BMW Mobile Trad list the M635 as having an S38 v. M88?
Update****
So I ohmed the old injectors and they are 2.4. So just waiting on confirmation the new are also 2.4. Edit* I should've put a stethoscope on each earlier to see if they're all firing. Will do in the morning
2011 1 Series M
1974 2002 Turbo
1987 M6 (2/87) - Sold
1984 M635CSi (10/84) - Sold
2012 335 xi
2009 328 xi
1974 2002 Turbo
1987 M6 (2/87) - Sold
1984 M635CSi (10/84) - Sold
2012 335 xi
2009 328 xi
Re: Valve Noise
that latter note comes with a note explaining that '201' is part of a longer Bosch number and '273 272' is part of the BMW number. The other digits were omitted from Bill Wolf's table because they are all the same. The correct pns are (in full)M6smitten wrote:.... I replaced the fuel injectors today. BMW Mobile Trad. sent me a re manufactured set (GB Remanufacturing 832-12101) which is supposed to be BMW Part #13641273272. The car runs really lumpy now and feels like its missing. I researched BC and found the correct injector should be the following (L) 201 273 272 all M6 and M635 (055 and 079 ECU's) "
Bosch 0 280 150 201
BMW 13 64 1 273 272
If the injectors are rebuilt Bosch ones they should have the correct Bosch number on them (near the top, in raised type). Of course there is always the possibility that they have been rebuilt using the wrong internal components; normally with rebuilt injectors they are tested for flow (both full flow and pulsed flow) and some reconditioners will supply a test cert demonstrating that the set is properly matched ( I wish they all did that....).
Even if the injectors are kosher, you might get lumpy running if (say) one of the inlet sealing O rings is omitted or nicked, or a piece of crud has lodged itself of the back of the injector, or something like that.
BTW I had an idea that might help with the noise issue; if you can find someone with a quiet M88 engine, and you make a video whereby you go from one engine to the other in a single shot, that might be convincing evidence that your engine is unusually noisy now. You can also perhaps use that as 'a control', so after someone has 'fixed it' you can have a reference point for how much improvement there really is. Similarly you could make audio recordings from a mechanic's stethoscope etc.
cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Valve Noise
Brucey, you were right on. A fragment of the old injector was sitting in the base of the injection port. The bad news is, the car runs rough and is smoking now. I am getting psychologically prepared to find out debris got sucked into the cylinder. Yay!!
Edit** Put a laser thermometer on the exhaust and saw #4 was only 200 deg. Listened to the injector and could hear it limping along. The car is running super rich so I imagine the lame injector is just dumping fuel and not closing.New injector is on order.
Edit** Put a laser thermometer on the exhaust and saw #4 was only 200 deg. Listened to the injector and could hear it limping along. The car is running super rich so I imagine the lame injector is just dumping fuel and not closing.New injector is on order.
2011 1 Series M
1974 2002 Turbo
1987 M6 (2/87) - Sold
1984 M635CSi (10/84) - Sold
2012 335 xi
2009 328 xi
1974 2002 Turbo
1987 M6 (2/87) - Sold
1984 M635CSi (10/84) - Sold
2012 335 xi
2009 328 xi
Re: Valve Noise
oh blimey, I wish I'd been wrong.....M6smitten wrote:Brucey, you were right on. A fragment of the old injector was sitting in the base of the injection port. The bad news is, the car runs rough and is smoking now....
A common problem is that the pintle caps come off the injectors when they are removed from the inlet. The engine won't run well whilst chewing on pintle caps .... no way....
So if you are missing some pintle caps from the (old or new) injectors you need to check the inlet tracts. I suspect that you can get a small USB video camera into the inlet ports and also into the combustion chamber via the spark plug hole.
If you are lucky there are some fragments in the combustion chamber that will simply blow out using compressed air.
If you are unlucky one or more valves may have been jammed open by bits of pintle cap. If this happens the pistons can (and probably will) hit the valves. This isn't as bad as it might be (eg with a broken or skipped camchain) but it can still be bad enough to bend the valves enough to lose compression.
Another (less bad) thing that can happen is that the ground electrode on the spark plug takes a hit and this can cause the plug to then misfire on that cylinder.
So I'd suggest checking the engine for debris/blowing out the combustion chambers /checking the spark plugs. Then (and only then) check the engine for compression on all cylinders.
Nightmare!
good luck
cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Valve Noise
With the new and functioning injector in, the car is running strong . The smoke must've been from the bad injector dumping fuel into the combustion chamber, the residual getting into the exhaust and burning off grime..
But the tic is still present.
But the tic is still present.
2011 1 Series M
1974 2002 Turbo
1987 M6 (2/87) - Sold
1984 M635CSi (10/84) - Sold
2012 335 xi
2009 328 xi
1974 2002 Turbo
1987 M6 (2/87) - Sold
1984 M635CSi (10/84) - Sold
2012 335 xi
2009 328 xi
Re: Valve Noise
Did one ever resolve the "TIC" from the M88 ??
84 M635
84 euro 635
95 540i x2
84 euro 635(Sold)
85 535i(sold)
84 euro 635
95 540i x2
84 euro 635(Sold)
85 535i(sold)