1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

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Moon-Man
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1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by Moon-Man »

Any suggestions?
(1) I turned off the ignition key and it kept on running.... Its a manual, so just stalled it out, but it used to not do that...
(2) I changed my cluster lights, and now I have no cluster lights, except when I raise light level with the dimmers switch, I blow fuse 23.

I have been fighting it for a few days now. I got my OBC working in the process, but would rather have the lights in the cluster so I can use it at night. (Speedo not working either, but there are lot of posts on that one.)
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by ron »

PUT YOUR LOCATION IN YOUR PROFILE.
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Moon-Man
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by Moon-Man »

OK, gotter done... now if I could just figure out how to turn off this engine....
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MVX11V
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by MVX11V »

Main relay? I know that when it fails and it is removed, inserting a bridging wire to 'get you home' will keep the engine running until the wire is removed, take the keys out... still runs... Can the relay get stuck ON?
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by Moon-Man »

I thought the same and tried changing the main relay last night, and unless the replacement was bad also, I could still turn off the ignition and remove the key, while the car continued to run. The yellow alert triangle comes on too when I turn it "off", but it continues to run.

Still puzzled. Tonight I will replace the K5 and K7 unload relays and see if anything happens. (Assumes I have one in my parts box....)
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MVX11V
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by MVX11V »

Is it running like 'proper running' or is it labouring?
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by Moon-Man »

It runs just as if the key were in and turned to " position 2 - on".

There is no missing, labouring or even noticeable change, except for the yellow warning triangle coming on and the key being out of the ignition.... I have only let it run for 2-3 minutes while I fussed with it, before I just stall it out.
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by GRNSHRK »

Sounds like a bad iggy switch to me :-?

I had to exchange mine years ago, as the car stayed in the accessory position (1?) and I could remove the key :-k

If none of those relay options work out, might want to consider swapping out the entire ignition switch :-({|=
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MVX11V
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by MVX11V »

2nd vote for the ignition switch, that's where I'd go next anyway :-k
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Moon-Man
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by Moon-Man »

Thanks for the suggestion on the iggy switch. The relay swaps did nothing. It just likes to run.

I will order a new ig switch and see what happens.
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by 86_6series »

I also think it's the switch. You should do a continuity test to confirm the diagnosis.
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Moon-Man
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by Moon-Man »

Thanks, I appreciate the good advice! I am in process of taking the old one out, in anticipation of the delivery coming in next week.

That said, is there a standard work instruction for how to test for continuity while its still in the column...

It pretty tight in there, and I am building up to the upside cramped work....
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by Ralph in Socal »

Connector is lower down the column. Meter there and see what you have. Big Red wire is incoming hot feed and the others go out to the various accesories. Black (Solid or with Yellow, I forget) is the Starter feed wire. If the car dies when that connector is unplugged then the iggy switch is likely. See what stays on when the key is turned off.

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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by hornhospital »

To add to Ralph's excellent suggestion, the black with a yellow stripe is the starter solenoid wire. Connection #50 on most ETM charts.
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by 86_6series »

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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by Moon-Man »

So, Sat morning the new ignition switch showed up. I ordered the one without the horn wire, but turns out I needed the horn wire, so I added one to it. Anyhow, because I had a new switch in had, I figured I might as well just put it in, so I did not do any metering like you guys wisely suggested.

I changed the switch and just got into more time sinks... I found that I could not push it in far enough for the grub screw to go through the hole. That meant that I could not crank it using the key. I sanded down the post on the switch to get it to go into the key lock further, and could not get the grub screw to meet the hole either, so I looked at the old switch and snipped down the post to match the old one, and sure enough it went into the lock hole and allowed me to use the key to crank it, but now the switch falls out after a few key turns. That would seem obvious, but I had to learn the hard way.

I ordered another igg switch to see if round two might be better. I cannot quite imagine what I will do differently to get the next one to meet the grub screw though. I will have to think on that while I wait.

The punchline here is now the car will not start. It will crank, but not start. Uggh. (I liked it better when it would start, but not shut off...) I put the old iggy switch back in, and it also will only crank but no start... So, I stopped whatever was not letting the car shut off - WHoopie!

I have power at the coil at #15 when the key is on, and none when the key is off, and the center high tension ohmed fine as well.
Battery is great and cranks the starter like crazy. I swapped around relays for the fuel pump, and main relays. Fuse in the fuses bank on the wheel seemed to all be intact...

I read the page 113 on the electrical manual and saw the two sensors outlined, so I ohmed out the CPS and ref speed sensors, and each showed about 1050 between 1&2, and infinite between the @2&3, 1&3. That might be out of spec, depending on who I read, so I ordered two sensors which should be here next week.

I did not have anyone around to confirm that I was getting spark, using a spare plug, but will check that tonight, and if I have spark, I will have someone spray some starting fluid in the intake, just to make sure that what I suspect is happening is true. I am hoping that the crank position sensor is the new issue and the ECU is not letting gas in. I'd be happy if there is something more obvious or different to fuss around with, and there is a secret fuse somewhere that I just need to change so that I have two spare sensors coming in the mail.


I think I went from bad to worse.


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Ralph in Socal
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by Ralph in Socal »

The key position is critical when you are trying to put the ignition switch in place. The slots have to match up for the switch to fully insert in the hole and then the grub screw will fit right in.

You may have disturbed the OBC relay which is near the connector block. Just above the stack of connectors on the steering column. Make sure everything is properly connected there.

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Moon-Man
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by Moon-Man »

Thanks! On the ig switch fitting, I will get a second try when my second new switch shows up on Saturday or so. I will be ready with lots of patience to get that tab to fit into the key barrel this time! I only spent a few hours on it last time...

Tonight I just checked for spark with a spare plug, and there was none... I am hoping that the CSR sensor is my problem, but because I am thinking that, it will turn out to be something else.

I looked for the OBC relay, but I cannot seem to locate anything? Is it the silver small cube relay with only two connectors on the underneath of the steering wheel? I did take it off, if that is it, and with only two connectors on it, it is easy to see whether the connections arre solid. (My OBC works and still seems to and is the early style.)

The mystery continues.
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by Moon-Man »

I think what I was thought was the OBC is in fact also called the OBC relay.

The square box up under the left footwell with the two multi-pin connectors and the internal fuse that blows if we do not take out fuse 21 when jump starting is actually the OBC, as well as the OBC relay. The OBC display is the numerical key pad with the red display that flashes 4 dots after reconnecting the battery...

Is that the correct nomenclature?
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by hornhospital »

Yes, but the internal fuse should not be affected by jump-starting the car. You shouldn't have to remove fuse 21 at all. If the OBC fuse blows when jumping the car, you have other problems.
Ken Kanne
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Moon-Man
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by Moon-Man »

Thanks, fuses popping are just not what we need... I do not know how to post pictures, but I have this orange with black lettering sticker (~2x3") that says,

"Remove fuse no. 21 when jump-
starting or charging battery
to prevent damage to the
On-Board Computer. Re-Install
fuse no. 21 after battery is fully
charged.
P/N 89 89 1 000 136"

I was looking to avoid more issues with the electrics, so was taking the sticker's advice for when I put the trickle charger on it. I do agree that if the OBC internal fuse is blowing under other circumstances that I would have something else not so good going on.

(Still waiting on my Crank and position sensors to show up to rules out one more thing maybe!)
Moon-Man
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by Moon-Man »

So, I was reading the ETM and it looked like I could disable the OBC by pulling fuse 12. I did, and she started right up, but would not shut off, so I learned that their is an issue with the OBC stopping the spark, and I still do not know how to turn off the car, as it would not turn off again. Better here than no cranks no start...

Mystery continues.
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MVX11V
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by MVX11V »

I don't know how this might help but you can have this experience from an owner of the worlds most argumentative 635:

(Please bare in mind that this is a bodge when I got the car and it's worked since AND due to other more important running faults and work and other stuff, the issue is yet to be addressed... that's my disclaimer...)

So, I buys my car and the then owner describes an electrical fault of which I know nothing about as I just want the car so I don't care. This concerns fuse 21 and his starting/stopping of the car instructions are as follows:

1) Open bonnet and insert fuse 21 or it won't start
2) start car and drive.
3) to stop engine at any time, open bonnet and remove fuse 21
4) switch off ignition.

He paid an auto electrician £500 to do that just to get the car started, and I have a bag with loose bits of the alarm in, including the ECU.

Sure enough, if you leave in fuse 21 then the engine runs on. I saw this as a pain in the rear so wired fuse 21 to a switch in the cabin and broke the fuse so now it's switched. The car ran for years like that. However, leaving fuse 21 in with the ignition 'off' left all the interior 'live' and things illuminated, switching it off turned it all off but there was no live in the cabin anymore for things like interior lights etc until it was switched back on. Sounds confusing?
Fast forward 5 years and all of a sudden, this operation changes all by itself and now it makes no odds if the switch is left on or not, the engine shuts down by the key and the interior electrics behave as they should but in the interests of fire safety and not having researched into it yet, I still isolate it when leaving the vehicle.

As a reminder, I haven't even bothered looking into the what, whys and whens about it yet and the car is in daily use. My vague plan is to get a complete loom and start again but you know, it's a 'project' :D
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by Brucey »

the OBC has an immobiliser relay in it which can prevent the car from starting. However it isn't easy to see how this (or a fault in it) could prevent the engine from stopping.

What will keep the engine running is if a switched live (in 'run') is connected to a permanent live somewhere. This could happen due to any faulty part that has a live feed in it and a switched live. However a favourite for this is that someone has been buggering about with the accessory wiring (antenna, radio, etc) and has inadvertently connected the two. This could be as simple as the wires being connected in the wiring loom, but it could be a feature of some head units that they make a de-facto connection under certain circumstances. For example I have even known head units where the connections are mislabelled, or are permanently connected (without an appropriate diode) inside the head unit.

The other thing to check is that you have the correct type of main relay. The correct type for early cars is a special (and expensive) type which has two separate contacts for the two outputs, such that when the relay is 'off' both outputs are isolated from one another. Plenty of people have successfully substituted a single-contact relay (as used on post 6/87 cars, which leaves both outputs connected to one another) on early cars and have not had problems but I have always suspected that the dual output relay was specced on the early cars for a reason and this might be part of it.

If the engine will stop when the main relay is unplugged, it could be either that

a) the coil is energised and the relay is closed (in which case you need to look for a fault on the circuit that pulls the relay coil in) or

b) that you have the wrong main relay installed and although the coil isn't energised, one of the two outputs is somehow latched 'high' (eg with a radio wiring fault) and takes the other coil output with it because (unlike the correct type) they are always connected to one another with this type of relay.

A very simple check is that the relays are the correct type (exactly) have the correct wires assigned to the correct pins in the base. Just one duff relay/connection can easily send the whole car screwy. It is also possible for wires to come dislodged inside the fuse box (you can check from above -eg with a matchstick- that all the receptacles have metal parts set at the correct height) and if they do they can cause circuits to stay live when they shouldn't.

BTW it is all very well quoting fuse numbers but the fuse allocations vary significantly with model and territory. It might be that fuse 21 does the same thing on a NA spec 635 as a Euro spec 635 but it is by no means guaranteed. Some cars were even shipped with owner's handbooks that have the wrong information in them.....! :shock:

hth

cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Moon-Man
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Re: 1984 633CSI - Cannot shut of the engine.

Post by Moon-Man »

You guys sure know your stuff.. and I get more ideas just by thinking on these scenarios.

I will experiment with both of these ideas tomorrow (Friday) when I get back to the garage..if that fuse 21 thing works, at least I'll have a way of turning it off - not a great way, but maybe better than stalling it out until I can expel the gremlin.Very mysterious indeed!

I have the OEM radio still installed, so hoping that is not the issue. The only accessory that I have is a wireless lock/unlock switch hooked up to the trunk wiring.. BUT, I have been swapping relays around, including the main one so I might have messed them up. I know I bought the expensive 5 prong relay, but for sure I have mixed it in with Autozone 5 prongers. I was unknowing that it was set-up differently as a dual output.. this is a good lead.

At some point, I have to figure out why lighting up the instrument cluster causes the fuse (23) to pop. I have to turn the dimmer all the way down for some reason, or I get no inside lights at all. I got a new dimmer switch yesterday, so will pull the cluster and replace it this weekend. I added LED bulbs, and can't imagine that that made any difference, but do have the original non-LED to put back in to negate that theory.

Last on the list, but very important is the speedometer fix... it thus far remains DOA.

I got the point on fuse numbers.. they only might apply to this 1984 633CSI, so in future I'll just ref what they should be loaded with...
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