Biggest Condenser That'll Fit?
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- thehackmechanic
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:52 am
- Location: United States
Biggest Condenser That'll Fit?
Hey Sharksters. I'm starting the process of retrofitting a/c into my Euro '79. Two questions:
1) What's the largest parallel flow condenser that'll fit? A search shows up a single post that references 16x22, but it's not definitive.
2) Any consensus on R12 versus R134a? I did a from-scratch retrofit years back of an R134a system with a parallel flow condenser into my 3.0CSi, and it's okay but not COLD, whereas I rejuvenated the a/c in both my 2002tii and my Bavaria, installing the biggest parallel flow condenser and fan that I could stuff into the nose and recharging with good old-fashioned Freon, and them suckers will freeze your knees.
Thanks.
--Rob Siegel
1) What's the largest parallel flow condenser that'll fit? A search shows up a single post that references 16x22, but it's not definitive.
2) Any consensus on R12 versus R134a? I did a from-scratch retrofit years back of an R134a system with a parallel flow condenser into my 3.0CSi, and it's okay but not COLD, whereas I rejuvenated the a/c in both my 2002tii and my Bavaria, installing the biggest parallel flow condenser and fan that I could stuff into the nose and recharging with good old-fashioned Freon, and them suckers will freeze your knees.
Thanks.
--Rob Siegel
Author of eight books available on Amazon or at www.robsiegel.com
1979 Euro 635CSi
1972 2002tii, 1973 2002
1973 3.0CSi
1972 Bavaria
1999 Z3M Coupe, 1999 Z3
1974 Lotus Europa TCS
1979 Euro 635CSi
1972 2002tii, 1973 2002
1973 3.0CSi
1972 Bavaria
1999 Z3M Coupe, 1999 Z3
1974 Lotus Europa TCS
- hornhospital
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- Location: Silverhill, AL
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Re: Biggest Condenser That'll Fit?
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=25858
Drop down to about page 14 where Song starts the rebuild of the A/C. He used a 16" x 19" parallel-flow condenser. Song has written and documented in photos a pretty definitive treatise on a start-from-scratch air conditioner refurb in an E24.
Drop down to about page 14 where Song starts the rebuild of the A/C. He used a 16" x 19" parallel-flow condenser. Song has written and documented in photos a pretty definitive treatise on a start-from-scratch air conditioner refurb in an E24.
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
- thehackmechanic
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:52 am
- Location: United States
Re: Biggest Condenser That'll Fit?
Got it. Was too focused in my search on compressor size and missed that. Great post. Thanks.
Author of eight books available on Amazon or at www.robsiegel.com
1979 Euro 635CSi
1972 2002tii, 1973 2002
1973 3.0CSi
1972 Bavaria
1999 Z3M Coupe, 1999 Z3
1974 Lotus Europa TCS
1979 Euro 635CSi
1972 2002tii, 1973 2002
1973 3.0CSi
1972 Bavaria
1999 Z3M Coupe, 1999 Z3
1974 Lotus Europa TCS
Re: Biggest Condenser That'll Fit?
You might jam a 16 x 22 in there, but you'd have trouble with the hoses and fittings. 16 x 19 is what works, and it's also tight. Personally, R134 is not acceptable in any car not originally made to use it. R12 is great, but pricey, and the best recommendation I can make for a high-performance refrigerant is R152a, aka keyboard duster. Do a little googling, and you'll see it's commonly used, works great (it's been in my E24), and it will be the mandated refrigerant very soon, phasing out R134. There are some very informative a/c threads also over on myE28.com.
Dean
Lutz, FL
'85 635 CSi Euro #9402254
'87 Spider Veloce
'92 Spider Veloce
'08 350Z
Lutz, FL
'85 635 CSi Euro #9402254
'87 Spider Veloce
'92 Spider Veloce
'08 350Z
- thehackmechanic
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:52 am
- Location: United States
Re: Biggest Condenser That'll Fit?
Dwcains, thanks for that. I think you're right about the 19" width.
I very carefully measured the space in the nose for the condenser (this is a '79 E12-based car), and it's 24" wide, except where it bulges in near the top, making it 23.5".
I then carefully measured the 16x22 condenser I just installed into my E9. The width measurement on all of these condensers appears not take into account the threaded fitting or the side brackets; it appears to be the-to-edge measurement of the vertical tubes that run down the sides. This is pictured on many of the sites selling them. The added side dimensions, however, of the brackets and the threaded fittings are not shown. On my E9, I used short-drop fittings on the hoses to maximize clearance, and even with them, when I measure from the edge of the righthand bracket to the outside of the short-drop fittings, it adds about 3" to the width dimension. Thus, a 22" wide condenser needs an absolute bare minimum of 25" of space to fit, and that doesn't take into account space to maneuver and tighten the hose fittings. Again, using my E9 as an example, the space in there is 26.5" wide, so I have 1.5" of space, which sounds like a fair amount, but when it's spit between both sides, it's not. This will be, I believe, my sixth car into which I've installed a parallel flow condenser, and due to brackets, little bulges, things on the other side of the panel in which you may want to drill a hole for the bracket, you can't always put the holes exactly where you want.
Taking all this into account, I believe you are correct about the 19" wide condenser being the right size. Add 3" for the brackets and the short-drop fittings gets you to 22" That leaves a total of 1.5", or 3/4" on both sides, which is the same as the space on my E9.
Thanks again. Cancelling the order for the 16x22 and ordering a 16x19.
--Rob
I very carefully measured the space in the nose for the condenser (this is a '79 E12-based car), and it's 24" wide, except where it bulges in near the top, making it 23.5".
I then carefully measured the 16x22 condenser I just installed into my E9. The width measurement on all of these condensers appears not take into account the threaded fitting or the side brackets; it appears to be the-to-edge measurement of the vertical tubes that run down the sides. This is pictured on many of the sites selling them. The added side dimensions, however, of the brackets and the threaded fittings are not shown. On my E9, I used short-drop fittings on the hoses to maximize clearance, and even with them, when I measure from the edge of the righthand bracket to the outside of the short-drop fittings, it adds about 3" to the width dimension. Thus, a 22" wide condenser needs an absolute bare minimum of 25" of space to fit, and that doesn't take into account space to maneuver and tighten the hose fittings. Again, using my E9 as an example, the space in there is 26.5" wide, so I have 1.5" of space, which sounds like a fair amount, but when it's spit between both sides, it's not. This will be, I believe, my sixth car into which I've installed a parallel flow condenser, and due to brackets, little bulges, things on the other side of the panel in which you may want to drill a hole for the bracket, you can't always put the holes exactly where you want.
Taking all this into account, I believe you are correct about the 19" wide condenser being the right size. Add 3" for the brackets and the short-drop fittings gets you to 22" That leaves a total of 1.5", or 3/4" on both sides, which is the same as the space on my E9.
Thanks again. Cancelling the order for the 16x22 and ordering a 16x19.
--Rob
Author of eight books available on Amazon or at www.robsiegel.com
1979 Euro 635CSi
1972 2002tii, 1973 2002
1973 3.0CSi
1972 Bavaria
1999 Z3M Coupe, 1999 Z3
1974 Lotus Europa TCS
1979 Euro 635CSi
1972 2002tii, 1973 2002
1973 3.0CSi
1972 Bavaria
1999 Z3M Coupe, 1999 Z3
1974 Lotus Europa TCS
Re: Biggest Condenser That'll Fit?
Happy to help, and there are many good threads now on thi topic; here, on bimmerforums, and especially myE28.com.
Dean
Lutz, FL
'85 635 CSi Euro #9402254
'87 Spider Veloce
'92 Spider Veloce
'08 350Z
Lutz, FL
'85 635 CSi Euro #9402254
'87 Spider Veloce
'92 Spider Veloce
'08 350Z
-
- Platinum Member
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Re: Biggest Condenser That'll Fit?
Rob Siegel, an author of neat car books, writes his books under the name of "The Hack Mechanic", is an author of many books including how to books. He has just measured out what condenser will fit and leave a little wiggle room for hook up. Dean is correct with the size being 16 X 19. Rob has done this on both his E3 and E9 and is now getting ready to do his E24. So, a good bit of research was done by him and I am sure Dean as well
81 Euro 635 M90 with motronic. Currently under a complete nut and bolt restoration. Pictures at
flickr.com/photos/bertsphotos.
flickr.com/photos/bertsphotos.
Re: Biggest Condenser That'll Fit?
Hey Dean,dwcains wrote:You might jam a 16 x 22 in there, but you'd have trouble with the hoses and fittings. 16 x 19 is what works, and it's also tight. Personally, R134 is not acceptable in any car not originally made to use it. R12 is great, but pricey, and the best recommendation I can make for a high-performance refrigerant is R152a, aka keyboard duster. Do a little googling, and you'll see it's commonly used, works great (it's been in my E24), and it will be the mandated refrigerant very soon, phasing out R134. There are some very informative a/c threads also over on myE28.com.
You may want to read this from GM on R152a
http://ec.europa.eu/environment/archive ... f/hill.pdf
Seems good and there is an additive to reduce flamability.
--Ken
Sansouci
84 E24 633Csi Auto, Bronzit/PearlBeige 6997510
93 E32 740il M60 Auto, Alpenweis/Ultramarine
60 528i M30 5-speed Green/Beige (crushed)
71 240Z 4-speed White/Blue (rusty & sold)
65 396 Chevelle 4-speed, Marina Blue/Black (stolen)
84 E24 633Csi Auto, Bronzit/PearlBeige 6997510
93 E32 740il M60 Auto, Alpenweis/Ultramarine
60 528i M30 5-speed Green/Beige (crushed)
71 240Z 4-speed White/Blue (rusty & sold)
65 396 Chevelle 4-speed, Marina Blue/Black (stolen)
Re: Biggest Condenser That'll Fit?
Thanks, Ken. That was a very interesting and informative presentation about the R152a. I had heard about the flammability, maybe a few years ago, and I took a can outside and tried to use it as a blow torch - like we did as kids with spray paint. It's not nearly so easy to ignite the vapor stream, or keep the flame going, so I don't have any concerns. There's also such a small amount in the system, it would burn off very quickly. As a refrigerant, though, it does its job quite well. Last year at this time, I sold off about 25 cans of R12 I had stashed, so obviously I'm convinced.
Dean
Lutz, FL
'85 635 CSi Euro #9402254
'87 Spider Veloce
'92 Spider Veloce
'08 350Z
Lutz, FL
'85 635 CSi Euro #9402254
'87 Spider Veloce
'92 Spider Veloce
'08 350Z
Re: Biggest Condenser That'll Fit?
Dean,
Where do you get R152a in useable quantities with the right fittings to charge the system?
BTW, We're going down to Fla for the winter and we'd be happy to hook up this time.
--Ken
Where do you get R152a in useable quantities with the right fittings to charge the system?
BTW, We're going down to Fla for the winter and we'd be happy to hook up this time.
--Ken
Sansouci
84 E24 633Csi Auto, Bronzit/PearlBeige 6997510
93 E32 740il M60 Auto, Alpenweis/Ultramarine
60 528i M30 5-speed Green/Beige (crushed)
71 240Z 4-speed White/Blue (rusty & sold)
65 396 Chevelle 4-speed, Marina Blue/Black (stolen)
84 E24 633Csi Auto, Bronzit/PearlBeige 6997510
93 E32 740il M60 Auto, Alpenweis/Ultramarine
60 528i M30 5-speed Green/Beige (crushed)
71 240Z 4-speed White/Blue (rusty & sold)
65 396 Chevelle 4-speed, Marina Blue/Black (stolen)
Re: Biggest Condenser That'll Fit?
You can buy 10 ounce cans of Keyboard Duster at WalMart for around $4 each, and a full charge is less than 3 cans. You need a side-tap to get the gas out:
https://www.amazon.com/Mastercool-85530 ... t+side+tap
Also, found a local shop that has several wrecked E39's, so I'm going to look at fans this week.
I'll look forward to getting together this winter.
https://www.amazon.com/Mastercool-85530 ... t+side+tap
Also, found a local shop that has several wrecked E39's, so I'm going to look at fans this week.
I'll look forward to getting together this winter.
Dean
Lutz, FL
'85 635 CSi Euro #9402254
'87 Spider Veloce
'92 Spider Veloce
'08 350Z
Lutz, FL
'85 635 CSi Euro #9402254
'87 Spider Veloce
'92 Spider Veloce
'08 350Z