I need professional advice on my '87 M6

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DennisLJacob
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I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by DennisLJacob »

I need to hear from the professional mechanics I'm afraid. I gave my car to a "reputable" independent mechanic to do external engine work. I wanted to install the Euro Evo exhaust cam gear on my '87 M6 and to do the Miller MAF conversion with War chip installation. That plus changing out all the rubber intake couplers with silicone replacements. The additional work was removal of the oem exhaust manifolds and install the Euro headers along with building a X pipe and install a aftermarket cat back exhaust system. We discussed a estimated time quantity and went over the parts I had and ones they would need to supply. During the job, they called and said some of the other oem parts needed replacing, which I agreed to. Then when I got the bill, the cost more than doubled. I'm afraid that I'm being taken advantage of. I have to pay the bill to get my car back, but I'm feeling like I'm being robbed. I'd like to speak/write to some of the professionals on the forum on what I should do. I can go over every detail, since that is what I did when I brought my car to the mechanic. I thought the original estimated time was way high and the owner said if it takes less time, they'd only charge for the time spent. Can some of you lend me an ear? I need to figure out what has gone horribly wrong. Serious dollar wrong. The cost of the whole car wrong. Need help. Dennis
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raykoke
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by raykoke »

Well I'm not a professional, but Nevada law requires written estimates for everything, I think...

https://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-487.html

NRS 487.6877  Notice of additional charges over estimate required in certain cases.  Except as otherwise provided in NRS 487.6879, if it is determined that additional charges are required to perform the repair authorized, and those additional charges exceed, by 20 percent or $100, whichever is less, the amount set forth in the estimate or statement required to be furnished pursuant to the provisions of NRS 487.6875, the body shop or garage operator shall notify the owner and insurer of the motor vehicle of the amount of those additional charges.
(Added to NRS by 2009, 2530, 2701)



Good luck,

Ray
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brickwhite
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by brickwhite »

Guess we really need to see the bill to make an assessment. M6 parts are not cheap... Try doing a timing job for under $2500... $1500 would just be parts.

"Euro Evo exhaust cam gear on my '87 M6 and to do the Miller MAF conversion with War chip installation"...
I have a feeling this would not be cheap.......

Cam gear would require timing parts and while your in there.....

MAF conversion requires dyno runs to get it right......
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by DennisLJacob »

Thank you guys for the input. So re: Miller MAF and War chip, I too thought that install required dyno work. However they didn't do that. They said they tuned it without that process. So when we went to the dyno session, all they did is do the run. So I'm baffled by the process they claimed they used. It could be that they just used the Miller default tune without any tuning actually being done. The dyno session yielded 241 rear wheel HP at 5,000 feet of elevation on a pleasant 65 degree morning third gear pull. The fourth gear pull yielded 228 hp. Torque was 222 and 216 respectively. I thought those numbers were lower than expected based on what Miller shows on their website. But I was told the reason was they did a "safe" tune over a max performance tune. Still not what I was expecting.

Regarding the bill, they lumped most everything into one large description. I'll list everything they did and get your thoughts on how much time would be appropriate.

1) replace all front suspension parts. 10 piece set from FCP Euro including steering tie rods and arms in order to have new bushings throughout. Also install Powerflex bushings for front lower control arm and lower tie bar to chassis bushing. Install Powerflex rear trailing arm adjustable toe and camber bushings. Install rear beam bushings.
2) install steering box reinforcement dowel and weld in place.
3) install steering shaft urethane steering coupler.
4) install Ground Control coil over suspension front and rear. Reusing oem front strut assembly after powder coating. Set ride height after coil over install. Do 4 wheel alignment and camber, caster, toe alignment.
5) install E34 M5 big brake conversion kit front and back.
6) install E32 brake master cylinder.
7) install new clutch master cylinder.
8) install stainless steel brake and clutch hoses.
9) replace all brake fluid and flush and bleed all brakes and clutch lines.
10) Euro exhaust header fitment. Port match exhaust header to new exhaust gaskets before ceramic coating. Fit oem Euro exhaust headers for test fitting and for X pipe exhaust build and for V band clamp installation. Remove exhaust headers and new X pipe and send to Jet Hot for ceramic coating. Note X pipe is for replacement of Cat-less setup and is about 2 feet long. X pipe made from 304 Stainless steel.
11) ship header and X pipe to Jet Hot.
12) Remove intake plenum for replacement of intake hose couplers for replacement to silicone intake runners. Fit Miller MAF conversion and make fitting for MAF to intake plenum.
13) remove valve cover for oem Euro Evo exhaust cam gear install. Install gear and replace valve chain tensioner to M3 tensioner.
14) send valve cover and intake plenum out for powder coating.
15) Reassemble intake plenum after powder coating and installation of silicone couplers.
16) install exhaust headers and X pipe. Mate and install cat back exhaust system.
17) install Miller WAR chip.
18) tune Miller WAR chip in shop some how other than on a Dyno.
19) install front strut tower brace.
20) install shifter upgrade with short shift kit and dual shear selector rod. Install seals and transmission mounts.
21) do inspection II service with valve adjustment.

Original time estimation and quote 70 to 80 hours plus parts. Additional time request for short shift kit and dual shear rod, replace clutch master cylinder, coil over suspension replacement and big brake kit installation not in the original quote. Inspection II service also an added service while doing all the other work. Other work not completed but included in the original hour quote - alarm system/keyless entry install. I have no issues on the parts cost. It is the amount of time they have billed me. We discussed the original time estimate and I expressed that I thought the amount of time was rather high. They said that if the time was less, they would lower their billing. In my estimate, once they got started, some of the work was "while they were there" type. Hey we have the front suspension apart, would you like us to install a coil over setup? Or the brake rotors need replacing, do you want to do a big brake kit when we reinstall everything? Those were the requests and at no point in time, did they say or mention how long it would take to add those items to the original estimate.

Final hour total ? What would you think this should/could be?
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by 86_6series »

It wouldn't surprise me if with what you had done the bill

would be well over $10 grand at least.
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by brickwhite »

That's why I have a lift in my garage. I wouldn't trust anyone to do this work.


This would not be cheap unless they are very versed in e24s even then... I guess $11k
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by DennisLJacob »

What is the rate per hour that you are using to come up with your $10k to $11k amounts? Or my point is how many hours would you guess are involved - by a competent BMW trained mechanic with 20 - 30 plus years of experience in the older BMW's?
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by DennisLJacob »

The shop I used charges $120/hr. So the original quote was for $8,400 to $9,600 for labor. The Reno BMW dealership charges $150/hr. with other regional shops charging $85 to $110 per hour. So this shop is a premium rate shop with BMW and Porsche expertise. They claim to be the best quality shop in the region. Not that, that should make any difference. Everything except the Miller MAF and WAR chip installation is straight forward usual fair work. Brakes and shocks all around and front suspension replacement and poly bushing upgrades. Even the short shifter kit and dual shear rod is pretty straight forward. I'm sure a compent exhaust shop could build the X pipe and weld up the V band clamps in a reasonable short period of time.

The other aspect of the job, is what is a fair price for the work completed. When my AC system was not working, the AC auto repair place spent roughly $2k of time to find out there was a broken piece of something that fell into the AC compressor. They missed it the first time around only to find after spending all the other time trying to figure out what was wrong. The shop manager said they should have seen the part in the beginning and only charged me $800 because that is what it should have cost to repair the AC system. That is fair pricing. What is the entire job worth? Not including parts. What should the labor charge be?

The front suspension was already apart when the question of coil over system was recommended. The same for the M5 big brake kit recommendation. It wasn't that the car was already put back together and they started over removing everything to install the new parts. So no duplication of time or efforts to make any changes. What is fair?
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by 86_6series »

OK Dennis,

How much did it cost you?
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by brickwhite »

$120 an hour that's what the dealer charges around here.

So you agreed to nearly $10,000 for the following? (let me guess what hour would be on the following I don't have a service book or there might not be on these)

1) replace all front suspension parts. 10 piece set from FCP Euro including steering tie rods and arms in order to have new bushings throughout. Also install Powerflex bushings for front lower control arm and lower tie bar to chassis bushing. Install Powerflex rear trailing arm adjustable toe and camber bushings. Install rear beam bushings.

MY Guess 12-16 hrs...

2) install steering box reinforcement dowel and weld in place.

MY Guess 6-8 hrs...

3) install steering shaft urethane steering coupler.

MY Guess 2-4 hrs...

4) install Ground Control coil over suspension front and rear. Reusing oem front strut assembly after powder coating. Set ride height after coil over install. Do 4 wheel alignment and camber, caster, toe alignment.

MY Guess 6-8 hrs...

5) install E34 M5 big brake conversion kit front and back.

MY Guess 8-10 hrs...

6) install E32 brake master cylinder.

MY Guess 6-8 hrs... if that even worked....

7) install new clutch master cylinder.

MY Guess 1-2 hrs...

8) install stainless steel brake and clutch hoses.

MY Guess 3-4 hrs...

9) replace all brake fluid and flush and bleed all brakes and clutch lines.

MY Guess 1-2 hrs...

10) Euro exhaust header fitment. Port match exhaust header to new exhaust gaskets before ceramic coating. Fit oem Euro exhaust headers for test fitting and for X pipe exhaust build and for V band clamp installation. Remove exhaust headers and new X pipe and send to Jet Hot for ceramic coating. Note X pipe is for replacement of Cat-less setup and is about 2 feet long. X pipe made from 304 Stainless steel.

MY Guess 10-12 hrs...

11) ship header and X pipe to Jet Hot.
$400????

12) Remove intake plenum for replacement of intake hose couplers for replacement to silicone intake runners. Fit Miller MAF conversion and make fitting for MAF to intake plenum.


MY Guess 10-12 hrs... MAF has to be wired to ECU and Air box has to be butchered.....


13) remove valve cover for oem Euro Evo exhaust cam gear install. Install gear and replace valve chain tensioner to M3 tensioner.

MY Guess 10-12 hrs... Cam gear is not just a pull the valve cover job....

14) send valve cover and intake plenum out for powder coating.

MY Guess $400...

15) Reassemble intake plenum after powder coating and installation of silicone couplers.

MY Guess 1-2 hrs...


16) install exhaust headers and X pipe. Mate and install cat back exhaust system.
see 10

17) install Miller WAR chip.

see 12

18) tune Miller WAR chip in shop some how other than on a Dyno.

Dyno tune.... $$$ could be $500+

19) install front strut tower brace.

MY Guess 1-2 hrs...

20) install shifter upgrade with short shift kit and dual shear selector rod. Install seals and transmission mounts.

MY Guess 2-4 hrs...


21) do inspection II service with valve adjustment.

MY Guess 4 hrs...

If my guess hours are correct you would be at .... 92hrs + $2000 in extras @ $120 hr so $13000 would be my Guess on what it would have cost. But I don't have all the details on what other parts it needed.... add another $$$ in parts....
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by DennisLJacob »

I would like to say how much, but for right now, I need to keep that part private. I don't know where this path is going to take me. All I know is I can't sleep at night and my blood pressure is through the roof.
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by DennisLJacob »

brickwhite - thank you so much for all the time you took to estimate time amounts for the various work items. That is very helpful. I haven't slept more than a couple hours the last 4 or 5 days. I'm beyond distressed. It is like someone just scammed me out of my life savings. Only they probably did it legally. Or in a way I can't easily recover from. I'll try to update things as I learn more what options I might have. I also hope others might chime in if they think they can add to my knowledge or work values or times.
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by GazM3 »

Bill shock can be very distressing. But more often than not if you start adding extra jobs on a quoted amount well then it just gets out of control and you have spent an amount waybin excess of what you thought u have had a mental note on what you think the bill wil be.

I’m always guilty of even going to the hardware shop with a mental note that all the misc items will be about say $50 and the bill ends up being like $120.

I’m a tradesperson / contractor for a living band often work to quoted prices on projects. Clients often add extras in but I always itemise them as an extra on top of the quoted amount rather than just give a large unexplained bill.

It’s really up to the company doing the work to give the client some sort of indication of cost to ensure they have the means to pay for it.

When also working on an hourly rate project when you are working on multiblebprojects at the same time it’s often hard to quantity exactly the time spent on a specific task. Sometimes I may be spending 20min on the phone etc etc.

Yes it may be a shock but the good thing is you have a nice m6 putting down good power at altitude. My m635csi puts down similar power but at sea level.

Tuning the Miller can be tricky (I’m about to find out on the 735i). You can’t tune it in real time. Maybe if you are not far away to get Miller to tune it may be an option. It’s probably something You can fine tune on the road with the assistance of an air/fuel gauge on the road. The generic tunes are apparently pretty close to the mark for timing and just need s slight tweak for fueling.

I here your pain. Maybe you can go in and negotiate with them. Maybe take a case of beer in at the end of the working day and go in and see them. They are business people and they may agree that a few charges are excessive and they could offer some money off.

At the end of the day it’s only money. Taking them to court or a tribunal will cost everyone and give you more stress. It may be a few thousand over your expectation so is it worth all the stress for this?
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by DennisLJacob »

GazM3, I appreciate your thoughts on the subject. There were only a couple adds. Mainly the M5 brake kit and the coil over setup. That included the change in brake master cylinder. The clutch master was not feeling "right" and so it was added as well. If it were just a few thousand dollars, I'd be perfectly fine about it. Unfortunately it was far worse. As of now, I'm waiting for them to show the time records to justify the time. And so far they haven't been able to do that. Which concerns me since they were able to produce a big bill without difficulty. All of our discussion prior to the bill have been friendly and open. So it wasn't like I produced a crappy attitude with them. They knew I was adverse to surprise and costs because of me being on a fixed disability income. I discussed my concerns about hours and fees upfront and before I gave them my car. So they weren't surprised by anything with the car. I did a lot of leg work for them and was very verse on all of the items and products used. When the warped brake rotor issue arose, I knew which BMW part big brake kit to use which included the different brake master cylinder. So I was an educated participant and knew what the options were and costs. I found them the best prices on nearly all of the components they were going to install. So I'm still waiting for a time for me to go up and check all the time records. Maybe there time is correct. But it could also be that they charged way more than what the job should have cost. I shouldn't have to pay for educating their mechanic or owner if their knowledge or ability to work in a proper speed of time for each job. I'm guessing that if I broke down each job as a separate visit, the time charged is still way over what it should be. I guess I'll find out or learn other wise.
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by DennisLJacob »

Brickwhite I envy you having your own lift. My neighbor, also a BMW guy, though he owns a couple Porsche cars too, just purchased a 4 post lift a couple months ago. I've been researching 4 post lifts too. In fact I was very close to buying one before giving my car to the shop. But I thought a few items would be more appropriate for a professional with knowledge on my vehicle. The exhaust gear for one. The other getting the car to a competent exhaust shop to make the X pipe while not alerting the cops while driving a open header car around town. Doing the Miller MAF and WAR chip upgrade was another item, though I expected the shop to tune the car on the dyno. So when that didn't happen, my concerns started to rise. Then I was presented the bill right after the dyno visit. I will have to check out the tune file to see if it is a default Miller tune or if they actually tuned the car in their shop with a air/fuel gauge setup. I'm uncertain of that since there is only one exhaust port for a A/F gauge and ecu. So how could they have the ecu hooked up to the exhaust port and have an independent gauge setup for tuning? Unless they had some sort of splitter in line to send the signals to the ecu and laptop or A/F gauge? I don't know that answer since I wasn't present for the tuning. I had told them a couple times I wanted to be present for the Miller tuning system session. I hope to collect my car and removed parts today or tomorrow. Then I can start a new process of discussion on the billing. I'm not a person who likes conflict and usually try to avoid it at all costs. But I'm better at writing my concerns than in person to person meetings. I'll find out soon enough. Then I can provide more information on this ordeal.
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by brickwhite »

it was worth the $2500 installed.

for working on German or British.

Image

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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by DennisLJacob »

How thick is your concrete where the posts are mounted? I don't think my concrete garage pad is thick enough for a two post lift. I think I'm only 4 to 6 inches. Who made your lift? Is it a tall edition model? Since I can't see the top of the posts, it looks to be really tall.
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by brickwhite »

I think it was 5 or 6 inches thick, nothing crazy.

I have it set at 12 feet high I think. but i have a 18ft RV garage under the house. I don't do RV's so....
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by DennisLJacob »

I don't have that amount of height in my barn/garage. So I'm stuck with a 4 post if I do anything. I'll have to wait until the bill gets discussed before being able to buy a lift. Though I can use a 4 post as a parking spot if needed. I'm not sure I'd want to use a 2 post lift the same way.
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by GazM3 »

If u have an x pipe or some other form of merge if the wideband sensor is after this it will be fine to sense from one pipe on the dual system.

Tuning the Miller ecu properly would be very time consuming. As u have to run it, then log the air / fuel ratios at certain load points and make the changes and log again. To get the best out of it would be best done by Dan miller himself. What happenes to the tune when u go to altitude? I guess with the lack of oxygen in the air the tune would richen. It may be worth using an adjustable fuel pressure regulator having a fuel pressure and air fuel gauge permanently installed like I do on the supercharged 540i. All I have on that to tweak the fuel is a simple interceptor for the maf signal. U can also adjust the voltage that the computer sees from the maf. My ecu sees 0.8v less at 5v so i can get more capacity from it in terms of power.
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by Pod »

Sorry to read of your problems. I got caught (once) when I was only about 20 years old, for a much smaller sum. However, I learned my lesson. I have never let anybody work on my cars for the past 40 years - and have taught myself everything from rebuilding engines to welding & spraying and everything in between!

I find it impossible to believe that they are "unable" to produce details of the hours worked. How did they calculate the bill! I imagine now they're trying to manufacture a plausible list of work done = time spent. You need to go through this with a fine tooth-comb and challenge eveything. Maybe the threat of legal action or bad publicity through social media will encourage them to cut their bill. Reputation is everything, so go for the jugular :wink:

Good luck and let us know how you get on. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this forum who will be able to assess the validity of their labour charges - but you need to post their detailed numbers first!
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

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Thanks for replying. I haven't slept well since getting the bill. I'd love to share the time and cost with you. But since one of the options down the road is doing social media. But I need to go through the steps. All I can say is the total on the bill was the cost I paid for the car. In the process of trying to see if there were other victims and if they left reviews on other sites, I came across something interesting. The owners of the company actually left positive reviews on their own company. I mean there name is with the review posting. I'm wondering what idiots write reviews on their own company and use their real name. Which begs wonder are the other reviews bogus as well. I've copied those pages in case I need to provide documentations of these practices.

I am concerned that the company is falsifying time slips for the hours they billed me for. But I can say that I never authorized them to spend any time more than the original budget of 50 hours. I called the Nevada Dept. of Motors for their Deceptive Trade Practices Consumer Affair's Dept. I hope to learn more about those rules. They do hand down criminal sanctions, civil penalties and refunds of money paid out. So I'm taking steps. I don't want to "spread the news" in case down the road it is something that I may have to promise not to do in some sort of settlement. I know everyone here would love to know the details. But I'm sure some of us have been wrongly accused and it is very hard to un say something on the internet. Once written and posted, it is permanent.

One of the new issues I have is the workmanship is looking sketchy. My 4 wheel alignment isn't aligned. The car pulls to the left and I have to steer to the right in order to go straight. I've checked my oil a couple times, and it is down 2 quarts. The exhaust headers rub against the heat shield protecting the AC coolant hoses. My newly restored white leather driver's seat is badly soiled and will need professional work again. And they scratched the rear center console leather top. The Miller MAF wiring was modified and covered in electrical tape. When all they were supposed to do is turn the MAF 90 degrees and they would not have needed to cut the cable at all. So at this point I don't know if I'm going to need to start over with redoing the crappy work they billed me for. It is turning into a nightmare for sure. I don't know if there is going to be a happy ending.

This company is making me hate my own "halo" car. The one I've been dreaming of since 1990 when I saw my first red with white leather interior M6. The worse part for me is the emotional toll it is taking. I'm just overwhelmed with how this happened - to me. What did I do wrong. I'm embarrassed to acknowledge that I got taken. I'm no spring chicken and I'm on a fixed disability income, so it's not like I can go out and earn more money to cover this. You'll never understand that when you're over 60 and you've heard and read about these claims, that you'll never ever think it will be you making the mistake. I lived with this "event" for a week before I had enough courage to say something to my good neighbor and best friend. But I needed to tell someone, anyone who could give me advice and moral support. The magnitude is very overwhelming. It would be like totaling your new car and not having insurance. I really appreciate this forum and your support and advice. I hope to be able to say more or give details when this is over.

Thank you for listening, Dennis
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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

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Re: I need professional advice on my '87 M6

Post by brickwhite »

What is a "halo car"


The original hours - 50 at $120 per hour = $6

They billed me for 162 hours totaling $19,440.00.

With parts and tax - $26,582.


Wow! I don't think I would have paid that. I would have walked out and asked for a line itemized bill.
Last edited by brickwhite on Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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