Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post here for mechanical and engine topics such as fuel issues, transmission problems, rough idle, exhaust, electrical issues, etc

Moderators: GRNSHRK, ron, bfons

Post Reply
User avatar
Boggie
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:57 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire UK

Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post by Boggie »

Hi All,

Since buying the car the starter has been a little sporadic. Most of the time it was fine but occasionally I would just get a solenoid 'click'. A second (or third) attempt would usually resolve the issue. Naturally I assumed a sticky solenoid was the problem and was planning on either stripping and reconditioning or replacing the starter at some point.

Whilst working on the inlet side to replace all the hoses, paint the block and clean the LH engine bay I realised that getting to the starter is quite a lot of work, much of which I had done already. So, I decided to splash out on a shiny new starter today. I removed the old one (that top bolt is an interesting challenge) and swapped it for a new item. However, now I have nothing... If I short the solenoid connection on the starter the engine cranks fine. Operating the key seems to fire up everything apart from the starter as when I move it from ignition to start I can hear a number of noises (relays? Injection?) but no solenoid and no starter, not even the solenoid click I used to get when it did not start straight away.

I should point out that as part of the current work, I have removed the plenum and expansion tank, removed the engine loom plug from the fuse box which I then unbolted and lifted out of the way, holding it up with a bungee whilst I cleaned underneath and around it. I have also removed the air box (disconnecting the MAF) together with plenum, to blast and repaint them before refitting, All this causes me an issue; normally I would only do 1 job at a time as it is more easy to identify if/when problems may have been introduced. Now I cannot be sure if the issue is the wiring loom, fusebox , something else I have done or simply the original problem getting worse....

Here is what I have checked so far:
  • The Blk/Yel wire from the fuse box plug to the solenoid = good connectivity.
    Soldered a new female spade connector onto the solenoid wire.
    Cleaned all the fusebox engine bay plug and socket connections.
    Cleaned up the heavy starter 'from battery' and 'to car' ring terminals and fitted shiny new nut and spring washer.
    Cleaned the MAF plug and socket. I know, I know.. at this point (and the next) I was clearly showing desperation.
    Cleaned and tested all the fusebox fuses and relay connections / operations.
As this is a manual car it looks (at least from the drawings I am looking at) that the ignition key switch sends +12V on the Blk wire to C200 (a 10-pin connector on the LH side of the column) where it emerges as a Blk/Yel wire that goes into the engine bay and which is connected to C101 (on the right hand side of the power distribution block?) directly to the starter solenoid. Does this sound right? What else should I check? I guess the next step is to open the loom into the fusebox and measure the Blk/Yel wire to see if I get +12V when turning the key to 'start' and if this is not good I trace the wire back to the connector on the LH side of the column and finally on to the ignition switch itself....

However, I cannot help thinking I am missing something obvious here. The starter was mostly operational from the key before I stated the current work. what could I be missing? Have I unplugged or disturbed a connection somewhere?

Any help or suggestions gratefully received.
Ian
1985 M635CSI
Classic Car and Bike Collector & Restorer.
User avatar
hornhospital
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 2931
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:46 pm
Location: Silverhill, AL
Contact:

Re: Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post by hornhospital »

If you have 12v at the terminal of the black/yellow wire when the key is turned to start, you either have a faulty new starter, or the black/yellow wire is connected to the wrong terminal on the solenoid (the "unloader" circuit).
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
ron
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 4569
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:35 am
Location: South Wales U.K.

Re: Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post by ron »

Boggie wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:52 am
.....I decided to splash out on a shiny new starter today. I removed the old one (that top bolt is an interesting challenge) and swapped it for a new item.
Use the 17mm./19mm. flat ring spanner from the toolkit. Relatively easy with that!
They are ALWAYS rustier than you thought!!!!!!
'85 M #228
'87 M #367
'88 High line.
'10 X5
‘84 Alfasud 1.5 ti
User avatar
Boggie
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:57 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire UK

Re: Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post by Boggie »

hornhospital wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:38 am If you have 12v at the terminal of the black/yellow wire when the key is turned to start, you either have a faulty new starter, or the black/yellow wire is connected to the wrong terminal on the solenoid (the "unloader" circuit).
Thanks. I checked the starter by bridging the battery feed to the lower solenoid spade and it span ok and confirmed I was using the correct spade. I guess it is a matter of following the wire back to the switch but I can't help feeling I am missing something. The old starter worked mostly OK before I started the LH engine bay strip. I removed the airbox and plenum to repaint them. Then removed the expansion tank and unplugged the engine loom so I could lift the fuse box and clean under them. I also lifted the main loom that feeds into the fuse box so I could clean under it and re-wrap where the old cloth had perished. When I fitted the new starter, plugged the engine loom and MAF back in to test I now get nothing. I have improved it worse! Either I am missing something (EG somthing not plugged in) or I have disturbed something in the looms or fuse box.

I presume the engine should still crank with the plenum not fitted and ignition coil and expansion tank not connected? From the online wiring diagrams I am referencing it appears there is nothing apart from a couple of connectors between the key and the solenoid. No computer checking everything is ok before sending the start signal etc. Sounds a silly question I know, but I once worked on a Merc that refused to start, despite everything checking out ok. I had to admit defeat and hand the job over to a Merc tech guy who identified a faulty position sensor that was telling the onboard computer that the car was upside down! :)
1985 M635CSI
Classic Car and Bike Collector & Restorer.
User avatar
Boggie
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:57 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire UK

Re: Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post by Boggie »

ron wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:29 am
Boggie wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:52 am
.....I decided to splash out on a shiny new starter today. I removed the old one (that top bolt is an interesting challenge) and swapped it for a new item.
Use the 17mm./19mm. flat ring spanner from the toolkit. Relatively easy with that!
Thanks Ron, good info. I didn't need the tool kit but I have a set of short, cranked ring spanners that worked. Initial problem was that the top bolt refused to budge but with a prodigious spray of penetrating oil and a little persuation with a lump hammer I eventually got it moving. However due to the lack of access to turn the bolt any more than a tiny amount each time and the fact that it would not turn by hand it took an age to get out. :)
1985 M635CSI
Classic Car and Bike Collector & Restorer.
ron
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 4569
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:35 am
Location: South Wales U.K.

Re: Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post by ron »

Boggie wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:40 am I didn't need the tool kit but I have a set of short, cranked ring spanners that worked. Initial problem was that the top bolt refused to budge but with a prodigious spray of penetrating oil and a little persuation with a lump hammer I eventually got it moving.
Using the 17mm.flat ring, you can get a tube over the 19mm.end to break the stick.

Boggie wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:40 am However due to the lack of access to turn the bolt any more than a tiny amount each time and the fact that it would not turn by hand it took an age to get out.
You will get more movement using the aforementioned tool!!
They are ALWAYS rustier than you thought!!!!!!
'85 M #228
'87 M #367
'88 High line.
'10 X5
‘84 Alfasud 1.5 ti
User avatar
Boggie
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:57 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire UK

Re: Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post by Boggie »

Ahh, thanks Ron.
I hope I won't have to remove the starter again but will bear that in mind if I do.
Cheers,
Ian
1985 M635CSI
Classic Car and Bike Collector & Restorer.
baders
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 1084
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:38 am
Location: Perth Australia

Re: Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post by baders »

Boggie. Please put your car model/year in your signature.
1986 635csi LOCUTUS / Arktis Blau Metallic / Pearl Beige / S38B36/ Close ratio dogleg 5sp
2002 E46 M3 / Topaz Blau Metallic / Black Nappa / 6 speed SMG software tuned / Bilstein PSS10 Coilovers / CMP RACP reinforcement
User avatar
Brucey
6 Series Guru
6 Series Guru
Posts: 10077
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 7:17 am
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post by Brucey »

if your car is a factory manual one then it will have different wiring from one that has been converted from auto to manual.

With converted wiring there is an extra relay that is normally inhibited/enabled by the gearshift so that it won't crank in gear. This gives additional places where the circuit could go wrong.

Note that the wear on the ignition switch itself is often a lot worse on a factory manual car, because (IIRC) the switch sees a higher switching load than in autobox cars. It isn't at all unusual for afflicted cars to get a bit hit and miss when starting, and new parts are required. You can of course bypass the ignition switch starter contact with a momentary action 'start' button to fire the starter if you want.

If you hear clicking sounds from the dashboard when attempting to start this means the inhibit relay (autobox cars and conversions only) is moving or it means the unloader relays are working. In either case this gives you more information about where the signal is getting to, and thus where the fault might lie.

Daft question; is the main ground wire between the engine block and the car body in good shape? If not the starter may not crank even if everything else is OK

cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
User avatar
Boggie
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:57 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire UK

Re: Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post by Boggie »

Thanks Brucey,

The car is a factory manual so no relay. However, I have resolved the issue!

I had a 12v buzzer in the workshop so I soldered a crocodile clip on the negative wire and a leatherwork needle on the positive and insulated all but the last 5mm pointy end with heat shrink. Then I clipped the crocodile to a good earth and by pushing the needle end into the blk/yel wire at points along its path from the ignition switch connector by the column to the starter, I could turn the key to see if the buzzer would sound.

I followed the wire into the engine bay, getting buzzing all the way, and into the fuse box but once I tapped into the last mile wire from the fusebox to starter solenoid no buzzer. I pulled the engine loom plug from the fusebox and checked the socket, which buzzed. I had already checked continuity between the engine loom plug and solenoid connection so that just left the connection between the engine bay loom plug and the fusebox socket. I had removed this originally when I lifted the fusebox to clean under it so it had been on my suspect list but I had given it a liberal spray with contact cleaner. However, I got out my smaller needle files and cleaned all the connectors in both the plug and socket, sprayed again with contact cleaner and hooked them back up. Buzzer now sounded on the key at the end of the wire, so I reattached the soleniod and the starter turns!

I spent the rest of the evening removing every plug in the engine bay for the same treatment and double-checking connectivity. Yet another late night but going to bed happy...

Thanks everyone for your help!
Ian
1985 M635CSI
Classic Car and Bike Collector & Restorer.
ron
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 4569
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:35 am
Location: South Wales U.K.

Re: Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post by ron »

I'm really admiring your determination, Ian.
They are ALWAYS rustier than you thought!!!!!!
'85 M #228
'87 M #367
'88 High line.
'10 X5
‘84 Alfasud 1.5 ti
User avatar
Boggie
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:57 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire UK

Re: Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post by Boggie »

ron wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:23 am I'm really admiring your determination, Ian.
Gotta get Sharky started somehow :) Where there is a will...

Just need the will of my local BMW dealer to order in all the new hoses as they are all that stand between me and completing the refurb/rebuild of the nearside engine bay They don't answer their phones, call back or reply to emails. Very frustrating as the one time I did get to speak to them they said that the hoses have to come from Germany which will take 5-7 working days. They also said they were struggling to ID all the required hoses but with your help I sent them the complete list from RealOEM so all the hard work is done. That was last week and I have not been able to get hold of them even to order the damn parts!
1985 M635CSI
Classic Car and Bike Collector & Restorer.
wattsmonkey
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 1649
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:58 pm
Location: Cheltenham, U.K.

Re: Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post by wattsmonkey »

Sorry to hear dealers being slow. I've been very lucky to have a great guy at Cotswold in Cheltenham to help me out with the thousands of £ spent with them.

If you haven't got a discount with them then it's worth joining the bmw car club. You'd recoup the membership cost pretty quickly!

Really glad you sorted the starting. As you've doubtless found multiple times, it's the intermittent faults which are most frustrating.

Cheers,

Rob
"Most of it necessary; all of it enjoyable." LJKS
'84 635CSi, dogleg...itbs and supercharger????? Eaton Mess
ron
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 4569
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:35 am
Location: South Wales U.K.

Re: Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post by ron »

Was going to suggest you change"stealers". Most seem happy to post.

Have you thought of WallothundNesch in Germany?
They are ALWAYS rustier than you thought!!!!!!
'85 M #228
'87 M #367
'88 High line.
'10 X5
‘84 Alfasud 1.5 ti
User avatar
Boggie
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:57 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire UK

Re: Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post by Boggie »

Thanks Chaps,

Finally managed to get through and have now ordered the parts (will update the hoses conversation with the current prices). Most are available for collection tomorrow, only a few have to come from Germany (5-10 working days) but of course there are one in the latter list (W shaped vacuum hose) that I need before replacing my newly refinished Plenum, fuel rail and other inlet side components.

Ho hum...
1985 M635CSI
Classic Car and Bike Collector & Restorer.
baders
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 1084
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:38 am
Location: Perth Australia

Re: Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post by baders »

Now that is some methodical style fault finding. Congrats on finding the problem Boggie.
1986 635csi LOCUTUS / Arktis Blau Metallic / Pearl Beige / S38B36/ Close ratio dogleg 5sp
2002 E46 M3 / Topaz Blau Metallic / Black Nappa / 6 speed SMG software tuned / Bilstein PSS10 Coilovers / CMP RACP reinforcement
User avatar
Brucey
6 Series Guru
6 Series Guru
Posts: 10077
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 7:17 am
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post by Brucey »

baders wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:58 pm Now that is some methodical style fault finding. Congrats on finding the problem Boggie.
yeah, good work fella!

cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
User avatar
Boggie
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:57 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire UK

Re: Starter Issues on Manual Car

Post by Boggie »

Thanks chaps! :)
I have to say I am going to keep the 'BoggieBuzzer' fault finding Gizmo (™) on my 'Might Be Useful One Day' tool shelf. I can see me using it again....
I might add a diode though. :)
1985 M635CSI
Classic Car and Bike Collector & Restorer.
Post Reply