Thought I'd introduce myself...and my '82 633CSi

Document your Sixer project here.

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DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

Thanks Brucey...that's exactly what I needed to hear. I found a guy on EBay with the horizontal mounts. Good point about the exhaust hangar, I'll see if he has one of those from the donor e12 chassis as well.
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

I'm pretty sure I got the rest of the anti-theft exorcised. I pulled the center console to make sure, what a massive PITA that was! Just have to double check the DME connector & pull the cover off to check the solder joints. This would be far easier if it wasn't for the thunderstorms merrily rolling through. I swear it's been nothing but rain since this car got here!

All the chassis cables were unplugged under dash, kinda put them all back together. Here's a picture if anyone knows how it works for sure:
Image

On the other side, by the DME, I also found a broken diode holder on a green wire above the glove compartment. Anyone know off-hand what that might be? Looks like an OEM job...not a recall, dealer fix or TSB.
Image

I'm wondering how far this rabbit hole goes down...but that's the fun of it, eh?
Last edited by DesktopDave on Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Brucey
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Post by Brucey »

in this thread

viewtopic.php?t=15771&start=45

there is a diagram showing a modification to the purge valve control and in this diagram there is a diode on a Gn/Bn wire connected to the ECU.

I don't know of many others offhand although there were different ways of configuring the electric radiator (auxiliary) fan control for overheating vs AC use and some of these used a diode in the harness as well IIRC.

Maybe someone else will chime in here....

cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

Today's plan is testing the coil, distributor cap, plugs and senders. I've been running 'round the car with a DMM for a week now, mostly everything looks OK. A few broken plugs but nothing really seems out of place. The speed & position senders aren't giving reliable results, so I'll be swapping out the e30 senders if they fit.

The e30 senders seem the same electrically, test the same way, same plugs, etc. The leads are substantially longer, maybe six inches. The sensor total length is the same, but the o-ring sits slightly closer to the end. Their part number ends with 001. I had an 002 and an 004 on the car as it sat.
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

Note to self:
When pulling out old anti-theft systems, plug the thick black/yellow wire back into the solid black wire coming down off the ignition switch. That way the car will turn over when you twist the key! The '81 733i ETM is better for this stuff in my e12/Motronic red-headed stepchild.

Next task is the ignition system. I now see 12v at coil term 15. If I get a little time I'll pull the distributor, rotor, HT wires and spark plugs. This is my favorite part of a project...slowly solving problems one by one...she's getting closer...

She seems to have a removable bell housing on the transmission as well. I suspect that means she has a G265 as opposed to the G260.
Chris Wright

Post by Chris Wright »

DesktopDave wrote: She seems to have a removable bell housing on the transmission as well. I suspect that means she has a G265 as opposed to the G260.
(Here is a boiler plate list I have been gathering over the last year as the posts came up. It's a start. What we need are some good original photo's all from the same angle.)
_____________

An explanation of how to count the transmission case pieces:

In this article (and many others), the bell housing is not counted as a piece of the transmission case. The transmission may be made up of a Main case and a Tail piece bolted to it (2 piece transmission) or a Main case, Intermediate section and Tail piece all bolted together (3 piece transmission). The bell housing may be an integral casting with the Main case or it may be a separate bolt on piece, but if so, it is not counted as a transmission piece. The reference to fins are the cooling fins cast into the bottom of the case.
_______

Basically on the e12 based cars before 06/82, the following transmissions were found:

262/(9?) - 2 piece aluminum case with removable bell housing - No fins - No Intermediate section - 4 speed was used in cars up to '79
265/6 ----- 3 piece aluminum case with removable bell housing - No fins - 97mm Intermediate section - 5 speed OD, used in '80 to '82**

The e28 based cars were all 5-speed OD (except the CR*) and included:

260/5 - 2 piece aluminum case with integral bell housing ---- No fins - No Intermediate section, was used in the '83 - '84 cars,
265/6 - 3 piece aluminum case with removable bell housing - No fins - 97mm Intermediate section, - used again only in '85
260/6 - 2 piece aluminum case with integral bell housing ---- With fins - No Intermediate section, was used in '86 and on
280/5 - 3 piece aluminum case with integral bell housing ---- With fins - Small Intermediate section, was for the ///M cars

265/5 CR* - 3 piece aluminum case with removable bell housing - No fins - 97mm Intermediate section - with the "dogleg" shift pattern and no Overdrive, used in Euro 635's from '79 to '84

The 260/5 developed problems and was pulled from production in '85 and the 265/6 was used again for the one year until the stronger 260/6 was introduced to replace it. You tell the more desirable 260/6 over the 260/5 by the fact that the 260/6 has the fins on the bottom. The 265 is considered by many as the most desirable, but you have to make sure the bell housing has the required sensor mounting holes if you are installing it in a car with Motronic, see the note below**. The 260/5 will not accept the M5 clutch assembly because of clearance issues in the bellhousing

*CR = Close Ratio. Sometimes called the "265 Sport", it has a different, "Dogleg" sift pattern with 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th on the "H" pattern legs, and "R" to the left and up and 1st to the left and down with no OD. The 280/5 is also a close ratio box but with the normal shift pattern and OD.

**If you are doing an Auto to Manual transmission swap, the 265/6 bell housings, on the '80 to '81 US Spec. L-Jet cars, don't have the holes to mount the Motronic sensors. In 9/'81 Motronic was introduced to the e12 based 633, so the '82 US Spec. cars have Motronic, so they should have the mounting holes. The 265/6 housings in the '81/'82 Euro's and and '85 US Spec. cars have the mounting holes also.

FYI - Three Series transmission:
245 - 3 piece aluminum case with integral bell housing ---- No fins - (97mm?) Intermediate section, was for the M10/M20 Eng. - M10 will bolt up but need a smaller flywheel/clutch to fit. No sensor mounts in bell housing.
_______________________________

The ratios for the 260/5, 260/6 and the 265/6 are:
1st - 3.83 : 1 - (3.82 for the 265/6)
2nd - 2.20 : 1
3rd - 1.40 : 1
4th - 1.00 : 1
5th - 0.81 : 1 - (Overdrive)
reverse - 3.46 : 1 - (3.71 for the 265/6)
Oil Capacity - 2.65 Pts. or 1.25 Ltr. - (3.4 Pts. or 1.6 Ltr. for the 265/6)
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

I got a chance to get out there again, made a little bit of progress. Many thanks to the forum (Brucey and Chris especially) - you've made this far easier than it would otherwise be...

When I started this morning, the car was cranking but that's about it. I had previously swapped the flywheel pickups with good e30 units. I pulled the plugs, leads, cap & rotor. They all tested OK, so I left the plugs grounded on the head and they started winking back at me! I was very pleased with that.

I also found the main relay (finally!). It was inside the cabin, pushed into the dash foam above the glove compartment latch. :-k Odd place for that, but nicely protected...it looked brand new. Unfortunately, it didn't work. So I swapped it out. Now it does what it should be doing! :wink:

I then made sure that I had correct relays in the purge and fuel pump sockets. They had been incorrect before, glad that's cleared up. After I did that, the car even managed to catch once or twice. No start yet, but she's getting closer.

I might get some more time in tomorrow. The weather has improved...it's cold but clear, not too bad for working on the car. I'll post the developments as they happen. I haven't yet determined if the fuel pressure is up to par. I suspect a fuel pressure tester will be my next investment.

I'll give the whole fuel system a good once-over and see what's working. A lot of high pressure line and rusty clamps need replaced regardless.
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Post by Brucey »

glad you are making progress.

One thing to check early on is the cold start system. This is more or less independent of the other injectors and is fairly easy to troubleshoot.

Basically if the inlet doesn't smell a lot of fuel after cold (below ~25C) cranking you have no fuel pressure or you have no cold start function.

With sparks, fuel pressure and cold start function it should fire well on cranking. If it then quits it is the main injectors not firing for some reason....

good luck

cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

Made a little more progress today. She's still not running, but I finally have fuel getting to the injectors.

1. The fuel pump relay tested OK (again), so I plugged it back in. Pulled a hose...still no fuel. I pulled the relay and jumped the plug...immediately the main pump kicked on. Apparently the relay is failing under load. The lift pump was eerily quiet, however. I pulled the trunk cover to get at the plug...seems the green/violet feed wire had worked out of the connector and was lurking uselessly in the rubber boot. A little finagling and now I have two (noisy) pumps.

2. Confidently, I twisted the key...and the car still refused to start. She's a little closer, definitely catching a little now & again. Raw fuel is definitely getting into the motor...I can smell it. Perhaps it smells a little too strong? So I took a quick look under the car...and see gas a-drip-drip-dripping #-o At least I know the pumps are building pressure!

New hoses for a new year, I always say. Lots of parts on the way, in fact. New fuses arrived as well, maybe I'll have some of the electrical bits back up soon. I'm betting maybe half the electrical system works?
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

Still the same, cranking but no start, even after I shortened the lift pump hose to eliminate the big fuel leak. I'm off for a fuel pressure tester and some new plugs.

***edit***

I have 80psi fuel pressure, nice and stable.

I swapped the coil, then cleaned/filed/re-gapped the plugs to .028". They were black with carbon. I left them out, on the head cover, they all sparked nicely. Buttoned it all back up...no luck yet. The motor still spins, I can hear it catch every now and then, but it won't start up.

I'm running out of ideas and daylight. I'll take another crack at it tomorrow. If the weather holds and I get some time I'll get out the compression tester & re-check some sensors, maybe spend some time with the AFM. I might pull the fuel rail as well.
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Post by Brucey »

80psi?

The best fuel pressure/delivery test is to 'T' in a gauge before the fuel rail, and to run the return hose from the FPR into a container so that you can see the flow. The FPR should hold the pressure at ~43-44psi whilst the delivery is ~ 1 litre a minute past the FPR.

It is possible for the FPR to fail giving low or high pressure; it is also possible to have pressure without enough delivery.

If the plugs are/were fouled, it might be better to get fresh ones; they are not expensive. Failing that if you have one of those minature butane blowtorches, use that on the centre electrode for ~3minutes; this will burn off contaminants that might otherwise cause a bad spark.

If you have good spark and good fuel pressure, its worth checking the cold start system and the injectors out whilst the gauge is T'd in. The thermotime switch and its feed can be checked fairly easily. Now, the fuel rail should hold pressure for about half a minute or so with the pump off. If the cold start injector (or any of the others) depressurises the fuel rail when activated, then you know that the injector at least is able to flow fuel. If they are opening you will hear a distinct click when they are powered. Just be careful with the main injectors; they are low impedance type on your car I think and it is a bad idea to put 12V across them directly for more than a split second, a 10-12 ohm (~10W rated) series resistor on test is a good idea.

good luck and happy new year

cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

Brucey, the 80psi was from dead-heading the pump. I'll borrow the pressure tester again and fabricate a tee for more precise results.

I already have some NGK coppers on their way. I'll also methodically re-test all the sensors and wires (including my spares) to be sure everything is in good shape.

I'm also considering pulling the intake manifold this week. I can replace all the hoses, make sure that there aren't any vac leaks, and get a bit of sealant on the intake manifold gaskets. It's just a band-aid, but it'll do until I get the car up & running.
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Post by Brucey »

ooops..... you have an early car so you should have 2.5bar not 3bar fuel pressure i.e. ~36psi....... not what I said above....

BTW intake manifold leaks would have to be catastrophically bad to give a no-start when cold, the mixture is sooo rich normally. For that reason I'd be tempted to get the engine running first and then sort the manifold leaks; they are so much easier to find when the enigine runs anyway!

good luck

cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chris Wright

Post by Chris Wright »

DesktopDave wrote:Brucey, the 80psi was from dead-heading the pump. I'll borrow the pressure tester again and fabricate a tee for more precise results.
Fuel pressure gauge:
A $10 gauge (80 or 100psi) from Grainger Industrial Supply (they have local stores near major industries), a piece of 5/16" (7.9mm) high pressure fuel injection hose from the local auto store and a "tee" with threads matching the gauge and some 5/16" hose barbs from the local home center.

You pull the fuel hose off of the fuel rail at the back by the firewall and insert the gauge in-line.

viewtopic.php?t=11150&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
Image
_______________________

Fuel Pressure with the fuel pump relay jumpered:
633 - 35.6 to 37.0 psi
635 - 42.6 to 44.4 psi

If the fuel pressure is not coming up, use some pliers and pinch off the return hose from the bottom of the fuel pressure regulator and see if the pressure comes up. If so, the FPR may be bad, otherwise the pump may be bad.

Use a small length of hose in a container from the bottom of the fuel pressure regulator to measure the fuel delivery, with the pump running for exactly one minute:
'82 to '85 all - at least 2.2 Qts. (2.0 liters)
'86 to '88 all - at least 1.9 Qts. (1.8 liters)
I already have some NGK coppers on their way. I'll also methodically re-test all the sensors and wires (including my spares) to be sure everything is in good shape.
Recommended spark plug: Bosch Silber WR9LS or NGK equivalent ZGR5A (or is it BP6ES?)
I'm also considering pulling the intake manifold this week. I can replace all the hoses, make sure that there aren't any vac leaks, and get a bit of sealant on the intake manifold gaskets. It's just a band-aid, but it'll do until I get the car up & running.
As Brucey says, instead of removing the intake manifold, I'd spend my time pulling the valve cover and checking the Banjo bolts and adjusting the valves and then replacing the valve cover with a new gasket, with a gasket dressing, to make sure there are no vacuum leaks and then check for the leaks below:

Here is a posting with common vacuum leaks, line routing and hose size:
viewtopic.php?p=107414#107414
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

Hrmmm. :-k If the fuel pressure is supposed to be that low I'll definitely check into what's what with the pump and FPR. Mostly everything else I've tested is very close to specifications.

I've been looking through what's left of the original motor...basically the head, manifolds and wiring harness. As it sits now in the car, the new(er) engine was fitted with the old harness, DME and manifolds.

The FPR and fuel rail definitely differ between the two (I'll post some pics when the weather improves later this week). The newer manifold also has low-impedance injectors but a 3.0 bar FPR.
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Post by Brucey »

oh, just to clarify; ~60-80psi is quite normal for a dead head test. Obviously this if part of what is required to get both correct flow and pressure in the fuel rail; pumps can 'pass' this test when the flow is almost completely blocked.

But if everything is stock apart from a 3.0bar fpr, then you will get ~10% too much fuel ( flow goes as pressure squared roughly) when running open loop. Not enough by itself to give a no-start but enough to make it run badly I expect.

cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

Sorry to be unclear...the car currently has the proper 2.5bar FPR installed.

I'm guessing the motor is an M30B34 from an 85-87 733i. PO swapped the original M30B32 008 DME/harness/intake manifold onto the newer motor. It's a bit of a Frankenstein, I'm still researching potential incompatibilities between the two motors.

The leftovers I have are:
the damaged B32 head (with bent valves)
B32 cap/rotor/wires
B34 intake manifold (3.0bar FPR, low-impedance injectors, different vacuum port arrangement and a mouse nest).
B34 wiring harness

***edit***
Well, had another go at her. I suspect the ignition upgrade (TSB 13 07 86) had been performed, with the resistor inside the CTS. As mentioned here, the resistor was installed and damaged on one end. The CTS connector was also cracked. So, suspecting I'd solved the problem, I cut the old one off and soldered on a spare.

No change, still no start. I think I'm getting closer, but nothing I do now seems to change what the car is doing. Very frustrating, to say the least.
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Post by Brucey »

injectors?????

The original injectors would be the low impedance ones and the later injectors would be high impedance. I'm not sure that the (later type) high impedance injectors are happy working off the early style ECU. Anyone???

If you have 'leftover' low impedance injectors then this is maybe why it isn't working?

You should get firing during cranking if you have just;

1) fuel pressure

2) sparks

3) compression

4) cold start function


I think you are close now, don't quit just yet!

cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

Brucey wrote:injectors?????

The original injectors would be the low impedance ones and the later injectors would be high impedance. I'm not sure that the (later type) high impedance injectors are happy working off the early style ECU.

If you have 'leftover' low impedance injectors then this is maybe why it isn't working?
The original manifold was swapped onto the replacement motor (that's in the car currently)...so I ended up with two complete sets of low-impedance injectors. The newer manifold had no vac nipple for the brake booster. I figured it came from one of the hydraulically-boosted cars.

There are a few details that I still don't have clear in my head. I suspect that that the coolant housing is part of the replacement motor; those sensors seem to test the same electrically; but are they?
Brucey wrote: I think you are close now, don't quit just yet!

cheers
Here's hoping...I know it's a heck of a lot closer than it was when I got it, but I had hoped to be driving it by now! Like anything worth having it requires an investment of time & effort; the payoff will be worth it.
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Post by Brucey »

there are (mostly subtle) variations in the electrical sensors (e.g. CTS) but if you have the wrong one it is not likely to cause a no-start.

Early motronic had up to four fittings in the t-stat housing; only two affect the starting and normal running of the engine; the CTS and the thermotime switch.

It is a good idea to fully test the cold start system if you have not done so already; this will cause a no-start as on early motronic there just isn't enough cold enrichment without it.

The other two tstat housing items (where fitted) are a fan switch, and a sensor for the dash instruments. Often this is a combined temperature gauge sender and warning light switch.

Incidentally I would advise against removing items from the tstat housing unless it is proven necessary; the casting is 'delicate' and the sensors etc often seize in place. I have broken a tstat housing because of this and so have others.

cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

I guess good news first.

She runs. :D

Turns out the king lead on the coil (that tested OK), wasn't OK after all. I noted that as I twisted the 90deg connector, resistance went from 1KOhm-ish (good) to 30KOhm-ish (infinite). Infinity not being something coils understand, the coil refused to fire. I'll need to find a longer lead; my spare is far too short.

Fixed along the way were many issues, highlights include:
Bad Main and FP relays
Loose lift pump terminal
Bad battery ground
Broken CTS resistor
Vac lines mixed up
Incorrect fuses

I'd never have gotten this far without the help of this board...I'd like to send special thanks out to Brucey & Chris. Couldn't have gotten this far without you in particular.

Bad news? She runs very poorly. I noted that I had some odd compression readings & put that down to the infuriating/cheap Orientally-sourced tester. Seems the tester was somewhat correct; thus I have some more detective work ahead of me. Might just be bad plugs [-o< ; I swapped in some Bosch Platinums while I look for the correct NGK coppers to install.

But wait! There's more! A significant brake fluid leak off the rear of the master cylinder, coolant leaking off the heater valve near my right knee, and my bargain EBay transmission cross-member (the steel type) doesn't fit. And the Tooth Fairy isn't real.

Excepting the final problem (son is very put out by that), I'm confident that these problems can be solved. I'll get her on the road sooner or later. A salvage outfit close by has a nice e34 535i; that might be the most reasonable course. I've been hankering after a Motronic 1.3 and cruise control after all.
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Post by Brucey »

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

car runs!

:-k :-k :-k

odd compression readings.....

well it might just be where the car has been standing; the valves must be open on some cylinders when standing, and here you can get condensation... these may not seal well (rings or valve seats) right away....

It may be that once you drive it a bit the compression will return. In the meantime you can do a compression test with/without an oil shot in the plughole (or get fancy and do a leakdown test) and this might help pin it down some.

I reckon these other things you will get sorted pdq... apart from the final one. No known cure, just distraction maybe...

cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

The plot thickens...I pulled injector plugs to see which cylinders aren't firing. 1, 3 & 5 are missing. Where they went I just don't know... :P

Results like that make me suspect the ignition system. Either the rotor, plugs or HT leads, I'm thinking. I'll be testing them thoroughly again tomorrow.

So I learned some new lessons today...an M30 will happily run on three cylinders, and in this case the glass is absolutely half full. It's just really nice to hear the old tank run. Soon she'll be able to stop as well; moving under her own power again will be another big day.

The brake fluid leak also seems sorted with a pair of salvaged sealing bungs (time will tell). Yet another donation from one or another of my old e30's...bless their souls...good thing to have a spare [car or two]! Along with the critical reference & position sensors I've borrowed subframe bolts, assorted nuts, wires, connectors (and a spare 027 DME with assorted relays for testing via elimination). That old 325e has breathed life into the 633CSi.

Clutch is slowly returning, I'll have to reverse bleed the clutch slave and pressure bleed the calipers. I managed to crank the sunroof & driver's side windows free; hopefully a little lube will return them to full function.
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Post by Brucey »

are 2,4,6 even firing intervals? It might even be smooth, sort of....

-worth checking the injectors to see that they are actually flowing fuel, as well. You can do this with a pressure gauge on the fuel rail; the 'held pressure' with the pump off is quickly discharged by a powered injector.

Daft thought; the plug leads are on correctly I suppose?

cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

It is surprisingly even on those three. Just a bit lumpy at idle, almost like a cammed smallblock V8...that's all.

I did check the wires...I was hoping for an easy win too! Unless labels change in the middle of the wire and my DMM is playin' tricks...resistance did vary a quite a bit on the HT leads. I should just replace the whole deal but I'll be swapping leads & plugs to see if that changes my "firing order" before I plunk down the cash for more parts.

I also haven't pulled the injectors or rail yet. Honestly, for as long as this car sat unused, it could be almost anything. Here's hoping it'll just be three injectors or new HT leads. I'm planning on a stop at my favorite pick-n-pull this week for a little spare parts action. Hopefully they haven't crushed that e34 535i they had last time!
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