1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
Moderators: GRNSHRK, ron, bfons
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
I usually don't like non-original colors on an E24, but the Tiefseeblau looks great on your car, and the quality of your work is top-notch. Can't wait to see some pics when it's complete. What color will the interior be?
Dean
Lutz, FL
'85 635 CSi Euro #9402254
'87 Spider Veloce
'92 Spider Veloce
'08 350Z
Lutz, FL
'85 635 CSi Euro #9402254
'87 Spider Veloce
'92 Spider Veloce
'08 350Z
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
Started to pull out some wiring today, rear ac, self levelling, rear speakers wires and the seat wiring.
I'll check over the wiring again tomorrow there might still be some rear ac control wires still there, audio will get complete new wiring, we made up a harness for the front ac and will be repairing all the wires that were tapped into and have the insulation cut.
I'll check over the wiring again tomorrow there might still be some rear ac control wires still there, audio will get complete new wiring, we made up a harness for the front ac and will be repairing all the wires that were tapped into and have the insulation cut.
1987 635CSI Japan Spec
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
I chose that color after I saw a z4 in that color pull into the service center and fell in love with it.dwcains wrote:I usually don't like non-original colors on an E24, but the Tiefseeblau looks great on your car, and the quality of your work is top-notch. Can't wait to see some pics when it's complete. What color will the interior be?
The body and paint work was done by the body shop at the local dealer, took them close to 3 months as they only worked on it in their free time.
I'm blessed with the good people around me who are willing to help out with their knowledge or their hands.
Interior might be brown leather with black alcantara in the center done on the recaros.
My family had ordered an individual f02 from the final production run, it's a metropolitan blue with caramel leather. The color combination is really nice so I might have to take a leather sample with me to get the same shade or something very close to it.
1987 635CSI Japan Spec
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
A brown interior would look great:
Dean
Lutz, FL
'85 635 CSi Euro #9402254
'87 Spider Veloce
'92 Spider Veloce
'08 350Z
Lutz, FL
'85 635 CSi Euro #9402254
'87 Spider Veloce
'92 Spider Veloce
'08 350Z
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
That's one impressive project to follow.
Love how you are tackling all the jobs, and what an amazing color that is on the 6! Will look beautiful in the sunshine
Caramel leather combined with that blue would look amazing!
Keep up the good work, I'll stay tuned :)
Love how you are tackling all the jobs, and what an amazing color that is on the 6! Will look beautiful in the sunshine
Caramel leather combined with that blue would look amazing!
Keep up the good work, I'll stay tuned :)
The M88/3 was all about power, no cats. At idle the raw fuel from the exhaust will make your eyes water like an old V-8 powered muscle car's exhaust did.
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
Dwcains, that brown interior is so 80's I love it.
Thanks stoffie it was meant to be a rolling restoration but when the radiator got replaced and I couldn't manage to do a coolant flush through the block as the heater doesn't work I had to strip the whole dash to get a look at the ac wiring, with the dash out we decided best is to do the complete restoration now and put it back together once.
Thanks stoffie it was meant to be a rolling restoration but when the radiator got replaced and I couldn't manage to do a coolant flush through the block as the heater doesn't work I had to strip the whole dash to get a look at the ac wiring, with the dash out we decided best is to do the complete restoration now and put it back together once.
1987 635CSI Japan Spec
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
- hornhospital
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 2940
- Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:46 pm
- Location: Silverhill, AL
- Contact:
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
Another classic example of mission creep. When it's taken to the extreme you have, it's a beautiful thing to see.
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
Had some family matters to deal with which kept me away from the 6 for a while but I'm finally back at it.
We setup the engine to give it a good clean.
This is what it looked like after two rounds of cleaning.
I was meant to replace the rear main seal and gasket,the oil sump gasket and the gaskets of the two small covers at the back of the cylinder head. We were waiting to get an endoscopy delivered so we could inspect the pistons and cylinder walls so I went ahead to open up the oil sump so we could get it properly cleaned and found a nice little gift in the oil pump filter.
From replacing a few gaskets this went to full strip down, luckily I had a chance to practice on the m88 motor that took me 3 days to strip down, the m30 taken apart in less than 3 hours.
There were no signs of damage in the cylinder head, head gasket looked in really good condition and definitely didn't look 27 years old. I have a feeling that the head might have been replaced while it was still in Japan before it was shipped over here. I'll be heading down on Saturday to pull the pistons out and have a better look at the cylinder walls. The pistons will get a clean up and new rings and we'll give all the parts a look over and see what else needs refurbishment/replacement.
We setup the engine to give it a good clean.
This is what it looked like after two rounds of cleaning.
I was meant to replace the rear main seal and gasket,the oil sump gasket and the gaskets of the two small covers at the back of the cylinder head. We were waiting to get an endoscopy delivered so we could inspect the pistons and cylinder walls so I went ahead to open up the oil sump so we could get it properly cleaned and found a nice little gift in the oil pump filter.
From replacing a few gaskets this went to full strip down, luckily I had a chance to practice on the m88 motor that took me 3 days to strip down, the m30 taken apart in less than 3 hours.
There were no signs of damage in the cylinder head, head gasket looked in really good condition and definitely didn't look 27 years old. I have a feeling that the head might have been replaced while it was still in Japan before it was shipped over here. I'll be heading down on Saturday to pull the pistons out and have a better look at the cylinder walls. The pistons will get a clean up and new rings and we'll give all the parts a look over and see what else needs refurbishment/replacement.
1987 635CSI Japan Spec
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
The valves have been marked so these have been removed before, going to have a closer look on Sunday over these.
The topside of the cylinder head looks in very good condition.
Here are the cylinder walls, no signs of scoring.
Cyl#1
Cyl#2
Cyl#3
Cyl#4
Cyl#5
Cyl#6
Pistons are very dirty, we're going to put them through an ultrasonic cleaner and see how they come out.
Keeping my fingers crossed the re-assembly will be just as smooth as the disassembly.
The topside of the cylinder head looks in very good condition.
Here are the cylinder walls, no signs of scoring.
Cyl#1
Cyl#2
Cyl#3
Cyl#4
Cyl#5
Cyl#6
Pistons are very dirty, we're going to put them through an ultrasonic cleaner and see how they come out.
Keeping my fingers crossed the re-assembly will be just as smooth as the disassembly.
1987 635CSI Japan Spec
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
I know its not a simple task but why not buy newer better designed pistons that have ring design that wont allow carbon retention on the bottom as you may get much longer life span.
'84 M635csi
'86 Lotus esprit Turbo (sold)
'86 Lotus esprit Turbo (sold)
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
Well for one reason I never thought of that. When I got the 6 series it was already running rich and the odometer gears were broken and the mileage was the same on the past years registration papers so I have no idea what the actual mileage is and how long it's actually been running in this condition. If you've any links to better pistons I'll have a look at them and keep them in mind for the future, I don't think I can justify spending on new pistons for a stock motor, I've got a spare m30 that I might build in the future and swap into the 6 or into a track car.TBM wrote:I know its not a simple task but why not buy newer better designed pistons that have ring design that wont allow carbon retention on the bottom as you may get much longer life span.
I cleaned up a piston by hand so when we drop the others into the ultrasonic cleaner we can compare how well it cleans.
1987 635CSI Japan Spec
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
Shouldn't a Euro car have the "piano top" pistons?
Also, more nice work, as usual.
Also, more nice work, as usual.
Dean
Lutz, FL
'85 635 CSi Euro #9402254
'87 Spider Veloce
'92 Spider Veloce
'08 350Z
Lutz, FL
'85 635 CSi Euro #9402254
'87 Spider Veloce
'92 Spider Veloce
'08 350Z
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
Yea, a few days after I created this thread I realised that the Japanese spec engines came catalysed and with a lower cr.dwcains wrote:Shouldn't a Euro car have the "piano top" pistons?
Also, more nice work, as usual.
I fixed the sig line a while back, didn't know how to edit the thread title though.
1987 635CSI Japan Spec
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
Had some parts of the engine blasted, all the water passages of the block are clean and had the rust removed
The valve cover is going to get painted along with the block
Exhaust got done to clean up all off the carbon deposits
Intake might get painted as well, the inside was cleaned very well and the finish is smoother.
After taking some measurements we found out that cylinder #6 is slightly out of round and the rest of the cylinders are just out of spec so we'll have that bored and go with the slightly larger "special" pistons, the top of the block is flat and just needs to be cleaned up to the correct RA. The cylinder head is slightly warped, the 0.05mm would fit under a few areas of the straight edge but the 0.1mm wouldn't go through anywhere. Maybe by Thursday we'll have the cam and valves out so we can send out the head and block for machining after the weekend.
I spent yesterday repairing the wiring, just need to go over and make sure nothing was missed before cleaning and taping up the wires. I still have the engine bay wiring loom I need to swap and a few modifications for the auto to manual conversion, aside from that will be audio and that's getting complete new wiring.
The valve cover is going to get painted along with the block
Exhaust got done to clean up all off the carbon deposits
Intake might get painted as well, the inside was cleaned very well and the finish is smoother.
After taking some measurements we found out that cylinder #6 is slightly out of round and the rest of the cylinders are just out of spec so we'll have that bored and go with the slightly larger "special" pistons, the top of the block is flat and just needs to be cleaned up to the correct RA. The cylinder head is slightly warped, the 0.05mm would fit under a few areas of the straight edge but the 0.1mm wouldn't go through anywhere. Maybe by Thursday we'll have the cam and valves out so we can send out the head and block for machining after the weekend.
I spent yesterday repairing the wiring, just need to go over and make sure nothing was missed before cleaning and taping up the wires. I still have the engine bay wiring loom I need to swap and a few modifications for the auto to manual conversion, aside from that will be audio and that's getting complete new wiring.
1987 635CSI Japan Spec
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
- hornhospital
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 2940
- Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:46 pm
- Location: Silverhill, AL
- Contact:
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
I can't help but think "GM inline six" every time I see a bare M30 block. Brings back memories of my first engine rebuild. Man, those parts are pretty!Desert635 wrote:Had some parts of the engine blasted, all the water passages of the block are clean and had the rust removed
Did they take the breather baffle out to clean under it? Because no matter how clean you can get the outside of the valve cover, that baffle system always harbors more dirt/grit/grease.Desert635 wrote:The valve cover is going to get painted along with the block
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
No that wasn't removed, the M88 engine I stripped down had hex bolts on the baffle this one seems to have pins attaching it and I didn't want to risk removing them and damaging something or not being able to put it back together.hornhospital wrote: Did they take the breather baffle out to clean under it? Because no matter how clean you can get the outside of the valve cover, that baffle system always harbors more dirt/grit/grease.
1987 635CSI Japan Spec
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
- hornhospital
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 2940
- Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:46 pm
- Location: Silverhill, AL
- Contact:
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
This may be what lurks under that plate. I center-punched the rivet spots, and drilled and tapped the rivet locations for stainless machine screws, which were installed using Loctite.
- Attachments
-
- M30 valve cover.jpg (206.93 KiB) Viewed 12238 times
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
Thanks for the nightmares I'll try to do the same and see what's down there.hornhospital wrote:This may be what lurks under that plate. I center-punched the rivet spots, and drilled and tapped the rivet locations for stainless machine screws, which were installed using Loctite.
1987 635CSI Japan Spec
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
-
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 1224
- Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:04 am
- Location: Silicon Valley, CA
- Contact:
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
This is an awesome thread. I really appreciate all the pictures of the shiny restored parts. I can now imagine what my motor looks like deep inside. One day I may get to see the innards of my motor. Hopefully by choice and not necessity.
-----
Song Huang
1984 633CSi
Last 7 of VIN: 6997383
Song Huang
1984 633CSi
Last 7 of VIN: 6997383
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
Thanks, I'm mainly documenting everything done and if it's of any help or interest to anyone that's great. I've been following your thread and when I was losing hope seeing your updates gave me a push to get up and get back at itsongzunhuang wrote:This is an awesome thread. I really appreciate all the pictures of the shiny restored parts. I can now imagine what my motor looks like deep inside. One day I may get to see the innards of my motor. Hopefully by choice and not necessity.
1987 635CSI Japan Spec
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
I took the block and cylinder head down to the machine shop yesterday so they can have a look at it, they said they wouldn't be able to get the out of round by boring up to the "special" size (92.08mm) so we'll need to go to "oversize 1" (92.25mm)
Put in an order for the oversized pistons and rings from BMW and once those are here will hand them over to the machine shop with the valves so they can go ahead with the work.
Saturday will cut out this harness and swap over the one from the white 6.
Also got some boxes of joy a few days ago.
This old friend is back again for the final time, going to pillage the LSD, recaros and a few other things before he gets put out of his misery.
Put in an order for the oversized pistons and rings from BMW and once those are here will hand them over to the machine shop with the valves so they can go ahead with the work.
Saturday will cut out this harness and swap over the one from the white 6.
Also got some boxes of joy a few days ago.
This old friend is back again for the final time, going to pillage the LSD, recaros and a few other things before he gets put out of his misery.
1987 635CSI Japan Spec
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
- spitfire980
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:04 am
- Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
Mashalla! lazim we go out once its doneDesert635 wrote:
This old friend is back again for the final time, going to pillage the LSD, recaros and a few other things before he gets put out of his misery.
Any more parts left from it? i got a white E24 and wouldn't mind some direct swap parts
"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car, Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, Torque is how far you take the wall with you."
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
Thanks man, I'm hoping to get her finished soon, then it'll be the SHJ-Kalba drive through the mountains over and over again to break her in. If there's any parts in particular you're looking for let me know, I'm going to separate everything that I don't need from both cars and get some pics. The white one is an '84 btw.spitfire980 wrote: Mashalla! lazim we go out once its done
Any more parts left from it? i got a white E24 and wouldn't mind some direct swap parts
1987 635CSI Japan Spec
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
Ol dusty here isn't so happy
I just love the look of the recaros
My friend helped swap the front harness over, he unpinned the harness out the fuse box and re-pinned it into the other... all I saw was spaghetti.
Weekend work is always fun.
I just love the look of the recaros
My friend helped swap the front harness over, he unpinned the harness out the fuse box and re-pinned it into the other... all I saw was spaghetti.
Weekend work is always fun.
1987 635CSI Japan Spec
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
Was: R̶o̶y̶a̶l̶b̶l̶a̶u̶ ̶M̶e̶t̶a̶l̶l̶i̶c̶ ̶(̶1̶8̶9̶)̶
Now: Tiefseeblau Metallic (A76)
VIN: 0766354
- spitfire980
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:04 am
- Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE
Re: 1987 635 euro spec in the deserts of the UAE
Yalla, im down and im sure we can get '89 and an M6 to join for an E24 drive.Desert635 wrote:Thanks man, I'm hoping to get her finished soon, then it'll be the SHJ-Kalba drive through the mountains over and over again to break her in. If there's any parts in particular you're looking for let me know, I'm going to separate everything that I don't need from both cars and get some pics. The white one is an '84 btw.spitfire980 wrote: Mashalla! lazim we go out once its done
Any more parts left from it? i got a white E24 and wouldn't mind some direct swap parts
I have an '83, can you whatsapp me pics of the car please?
Thanks
"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car, Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, Torque is how far you take the wall with you."