1984 633CSi Rises again!

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songzunhuang
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Few more A/C parts gathering.

Post by songzunhuang »

This week I ordered a receiver / dryer (Behr # 351195071), an new expansion valve (#64511468475 AC Expansion Valve) and for good measure an A/C conversion kit since I am going from r12 to r134a. This kit was a bunch of adaptors and o-rings. I am not entirely sure I needed it, but I thought for $16, I'd rather be safe than sorry. According to Autohaus AZ, the Behr Receiver Dryer is supposed to be for R134a. I didn't know there were different receiver dryer options, so that's new information.

Finally, I also ordered a transmission fluid filter and gasket. One thing I have not changed is the tranny fluid. I read somewhere that if the tranny is working well, leave it alone. Of course I also read that clean fluid is critical. Although my tranny is working well and the fluid doesn't look too dark, I also know that it is unknown the last time it was changed. So, this is a preventative maintenance thing. Oh, I should note that I have a 4 speed ZF automatic in my car. I"m hoping the tranny fluid change is rather simple. I guess I'll find out in the near future.

Now the only remaining items are the new custom hoses. Again, that'll be a trial and error thing as I need to fit the new A/C parts on first before I can figure out the fittings, angles and lengths for the hoses.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by zinnocoupe »

Hey Song glad to see you are back at it. I'll be doing the AC someday so eagerly watching. One bit of advise I would pass on to you in changing the tranny fluid in your auto is: when you are undoing the drain bolt, make sure you clean/ream out the allen slot well before you put the allen key in and turn. When I did mine I just stuck it in and turned and of course I rounded the hole :oops: Its a fairly small sized key if I remember right.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

zinnocoupe wrote:Hey Song glad to see you are back at it. I'll be doing the AC someday so eagerly watching. One bit of advise I would pass on to you in changing the tranny fluid in your auto is: when you are undoing the drain bolt, make sure you clean/ream out the allen slot well before you put the allen key in and turn. When I did mine I just stuck it in and turned and of course I rounded the hole :oops: Its a fairly small sized key if I remember right.
Allright, thanks for the tip. I'll keep it in mind when I get to it.

- Song
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Song Huang
1984 633CSi
Last 7 of VIN: 6997383
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Almost stranded - indirectly saved by the forum!

Post by songzunhuang »

So today as I was getting into my car to drive home, I turned the key and nothing happened. I was facing the thought of being stranded at the train station. The starter would not crank. All the instruments turned on and the radio, windows, fan, etc. all worked fine, but there was no starter cranking when I turned the key. I sat there for a moment and thought about what this could be. It seemed that the battery was good and all electrical stuff was fine.

Then I remembered a trick I used when I was adjusting the valves. If I jumped pins 11 and 14 on the diagnostic port, it would crank the starter. I used it to open and close the valve rocker arms for valve adjustment, but I wondered if it would start the car. Hmm, lucky I keep a box of various tools and odds and ends in my trunk. One of those items happened to be a length of copper conduit wire. I had used it to reset the oil change or service light in the past.

Anyway, I put my key in and turned on the ignition. All the instrument jumped to life and system check lights came on as expected. I popped open the hood, took the cover off the diagnostic port and used my copper conduit wire to jump pins 11 & 14. Lo and behold, the starter kicked in and then the engine fired up! Woohoo, I was able to drive the 25 miles home without an issue. As I pulled into my driveway and parked my car, I turned it off and tried to star it again with the key - nothing. It wasn't going to crank.

In a weird way, the forum saved my butt. If it wasn't for all the reading up I've been doing the past year, I wouldn't have been able to figure this out. So big shout out to the BigCoupe! =D>

OK, I got home and found this thread - http://www.bigcoupe.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8478
From the reading here, I am pretty sure my issue its the ignition switch. I also recalled that my steering lock had stopped working a while back. Could it be related? However, It seems a dealer part or BMW OEM only and about $120-150 with shipping it gets rude. I need this FAST so I did some more looking and I found that there's actually an equivalent from a company called Standard Motor Product (US1150) that's only about $90. OK, I'm game. Even with the $25 shipping of 2nd day air, it comes to $115. http://ecatalog.smpcorp.com/STD/#/vehic ... 150?type=s

So perhaps if someone has this issue, they can try this alternative and save a few bucks. I'm ordering it and when I get mine, I'll report back how it all worked.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by tschultz »

Don't mess with the ignition switch, it is more likely the 'start' relay under the dash.

Only came on automatics. A much cheaper fix. Use the horn relay or another relay and see if it cranks. I'm betting it will.

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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by sansouci »

songzunhuang wrote:
zinnocoupe wrote:Hey Song glad to see you are back at it. I'll be doing the AC someday so eagerly watching. One bit of advise I would pass on to you in changing the tranny fluid in your auto is: when you are undoing the drain bolt, make sure you clean/ream out the allen slot well before you put the allen key in and turn. When I did mine I just stuck it in and turned and of course I rounded the hole :oops: Its a fairly small sized key if I remember right.
Allright, thanks for the tip. I'll keep it in mind when I get to it.

- Song
Use a HF pick tool to clean it out
Sansouci
84 E24 633Csi Auto, Bronzit/PearlBeige 6997510
93 E32 740il M60 Auto, Alpenweis/Ultramarine
60 528i M30 5-speed Green/Beige (crushed)
71 240Z 4-speed White/Blue (rusty & sold)
65 396 Chevelle 4-speed, Marina Blue/Black (stolen)
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

tschultz wrote:Don't mess with the ignition switch, it is more likely the 'start' relay under the dash.

Only came on automatics. A much cheaper fix. Use the horn relay or another relay and see if it cranks. I'm betting it will.
OK, this is most interesting. I did hear a noise under the dash every once in a while when I turned the key. It's too late today to check this, but perhaps I'll go check this out in the morning before I head to work.

Unfortunately I already ordered the ignition switch and even paid extra to express it so that I would have it before the weekend. I'm guessing the start relay is more easily acquirable. Maybe I'll call an auto parts store and get one. It can't hurt to have a spare and at the cost I see of around $10-12, it's worth it as insurance.

Thanks for the info.
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Song Huang
1984 633CSi
Last 7 of VIN: 6997383
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

sansouci wrote:
songzunhuang wrote:
zinnocoupe wrote:Hey Song glad to see you are back at it. I'll be doing the AC someday so eagerly watching. One bit of advise I would pass on to you in changing the tranny fluid in your auto is: when you are undoing the drain bolt, make sure you clean/ream out the allen slot well before you put the allen key in and turn. When I did mine I just stuck it in and turned and of course I rounded the hole :oops: Its a fairly small sized key if I remember right.
Allright, thanks for the tip. I'll keep it in mind when I get to it.

- Song
Use a HF pick tool to clean it out
OK, I have one of those picks. I'll be sure and keep this in mind. My tranny fluid change has taken a back seat to my starter cranking problem. The car is sitting idle until I can figure out what's up with the starter not cranking when I turn the key.
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Song Huang
1984 633CSi
Last 7 of VIN: 6997383
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

tschultz wrote:Don't mess with the ignition switch, it is more likely the 'start' relay under the dash.

Only came on automatics. A much cheaper fix. Use the horn relay or another relay and see if it cranks. I'm betting it will.
And we have a winner! TSchultz, you hit the nail on the head. This morning I couldn't resist trying your trick and I swapped the horn relay with the starter relay. The car cranked right up! I drove it to work.

Thanks so much. I'm ordering a replacement relay and wondering if I should just return the ignition switch that I paid extra to Express ship. Sigh... you live and learn.

===< Editing - adding to this old post >===
This is September 23, 2017. I wanted to use the benefit of 20/20 hindsight to update this. As it turns out the problem was in fact a slowly failing ignition switch. The fact that I replaced the relay and it worked the morning of this post was just an anomaly.
Last edited by songzunhuang on Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Song Huang
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by tschultz »

Great to hear. I went through this back in January and that was my problem too. Electrics working means ignition is working fine.
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Starter won't crank - part 2

Post by songzunhuang »

Well, after the replacement of my relay the car worked great for several days. Then, yesterday at the train station it happened again. Same thing. I turn the key, not cranking. I ended up jumping pins 11 & 14 in the diagnostics port to start the car and drive home. When I got home and shut the car down, I turned the key just for kicks and this time it cranked and started!

Anyone have an idea of where to look next if I have replaced the relay?

Just for completeness, here's a few pics of the relay update. The new relay from Bavarian Autosport was $9 and made by Bosch.
Old (Hella) vs New (Bosch)
Old (Hella) vs New (Bosch)
Screen Shot 2017-04-13 at 7.55.35 AM.png (1.09 MiB) Viewed 9328 times
Here it is in the location under the driver side of the dashboard. Here the lower dash cover is removed.
Orange starter relay in place under dash.
Orange starter relay in place under dash.
Screen Shot 2017-04-13 at 7.55.51 AM.png (1.09 MiB) Viewed 9328 times
Again, I have an intermittent starter issue. Something is preventing the starter from cranking when I turn the ignition key. I've replaced the starter relay so I don't think that's the only issue anymore. Thanks in advance for any ideas.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by zinnocoupe »

Song, I'm really the wrong person to be giving electrical advice as I know you are have a lot more electronic and electrical knowledge than I. Bentley 22 -29 gives the schematic for the ignition switch. Could you get in there and test those terminals with your multi meter. Another thing that I would think of is cleaning all grounds and connections but I assume you've done that. How about checking for power at the starter when you turn the key, maybe its the starter solenoid? Good luck
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1987 635csi 60K KM Garage Queen
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

zinnocoupe wrote:Song, I'm really the wrong person to be giving electrical advice as I know you are have a lot more electronic and electrical knowledge than I. Bentley 22 -29 gives the schematic for the ignition switch. Could you get in there and test those terminals with your multi meter. Another thing that I would think of is cleaning all grounds and connections but I assume you've done that. How about checking for power at the starter when you turn the key, maybe its the starter solenoid? Good luck
Hey Zinnocoupe, I appreciate the feedback.
As you may have guessed, I am trying to get the collective wisdom of the group so I can minimize the time I will have to troubleshoot. I'm sure I can track it down over time, but I really want to focus on my A/C overhaul. This starter issue is a bit of a distraction and annoyance!
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by zinnocoupe »

This starter issue is a bit of a distraction and annoyance!
I bet, sounds like a pain. And good luck with the AC
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AC Retrofit no going as planned...

Post by songzunhuang »

I learned a few things today. One, Easter Sunday is a bad day to work on cars if you need to get parts. Everything is closed. Today was also the only day I had to get started and wouldn't you know, it had to rain. Since I don't have a covered area to work on the car, I thought I would at least gather a few parts so I would be ready one clear day. Of course, fate had other plans for me.

First, I took inventory of all my parts to figure out what I would need.
All the parts and issues all laid out.
All the parts and issues all laid out.
AC Parts.png (856 KiB) Viewed 9269 times
I was test fitting the lower adjustable bracket on the custom compressor brackets, when I noticed that the adjusting bolt would not fit through the compressor bracket holes. The bracket holes needed to be drilled out a tiny bit. OK, I can handle that.
Drilling out the compressor bracket holes.
Drilling out the compressor bracket holes.
Drill it out.png (697.61 KiB) Viewed 9272 times
The hardware store was closed, so I decided to give the local auto parts store a shot. They had many of the nuts bolts and washers, but then I discovered a problem. Is the width of my compressor wing mounts different that those I've seen in pictures from Dwcains and others? If I mount them in the same way I have seen in other posts, things just do not line up correctly. There are large gaps that differ. In the picture below I compare the picture from dwcains (left) to my situation (right).
The mounting appears to be different than what I have seen in pictures.
The mounting appears to be different than what I have seen in pictures.
Gap Difference.png (637.8 KiB) Viewed 9272 times
Now if I shift everything over and have the compressor mount parts inside the compressor wings, then it fits the width of the adjustable bracket perfectly; however, I don't know if that's going to mess up the belt alignment. I won't know until I get to test it all in place one (non-rainy) day.

So it looks like I will have to wait for a day where I can remove my old compressor and compare its' alignment to that of the new parts I have. I can't just copy the pictures I have seen. Also a little bothersome is the fact that the holes on the custom compressor bracket are bigger than the holes on the compressor wings themselves. There's going be some play as the bolts' diameter will be a bit less than that of the hole in the bracket. I am not sure I like that. Finally, it looks like the upper hole (pivot point) on the aluminum piece will need to be enlarged as it's smaller than the hole in the compressor wing. Ugh, I don't like it when things have so much variance.

Anyway, it's still raining. I won't be messing with this anymore today. I just wanted to record what I learned today. As usual, welcome tips, observations and anything else that can shed light on this process.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by dwcains »

Song:

The wing spacing should be the same on any Sanden 508 clone, and yours looks just like one of mine. Do you have this gap (shown in red) on your setup, spacing the compressor rearwards? Hard to tell from your pic, because the adjuster is pivoted upwards, but I think this is your issue. I used a thick nut and washer in that spot. Belt alignment is critical, but I was able to use standard sized nuts and washers from my junk bin to adjust the fore-and-aft position of the compressor.

Image

Also, the newer batch of brackets do have larger hole for the adjustment pivot bolt, as most cars seemed to have that size, but the larger holes for the compressor mounts are by-design, to allow alignment, and once the fasteners are tight, the compressor won't move. Tough to make a bracket design for every car with the M30 engine, but it works.

I thought about having one of these brackets re-cast, but that seemed like it would be way too expensive. They were available in the aftermarket for a while, but the supply seemingly dried up a few years ago. I've got a few I'm holding onto, which came as a surprise in a box of spares with my car:

Image

Image
Dean
Lutz, FL

'85 635 CSi Euro #9402254
'87 Spider Veloce
'92 Spider Veloce
'08 350Z

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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by sansouci »

Song,
You seem to have your adjustment bracket (the one with the teeth) reverse from the way Dean has his mounted. Unless of course you are taking the picture from the other side?

Also, after 5-7 years of a drought, you are now getting payback...

Ken
Last edited by sansouci on Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Sansouci
84 E24 633Csi Auto, Bronzit/PearlBeige 6997510
93 E32 740il M60 Auto, Alpenweis/Ultramarine
60 528i M30 5-speed Green/Beige (crushed)
71 240Z 4-speed White/Blue (rusty & sold)
65 396 Chevelle 4-speed, Marina Blue/Black (stolen)
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

dwcains wrote:Song:

The wing spacing should be the same on any Sanden 508 clone, and yours looks just like one of mine. Do you have this gap (shown in red) on your setup, spacing the compressor rearwards? Hard to tell from your pic, because the adjuster is pivoted upwards, but I think this is your issue. I used a thick nut and washer in that spot. Belt alignment is critical, but I was able to use standard sized nuts and washers from my junk bin to adjust the fore-and-aft position of the compressor.
Hm, I don't have that gap in the rear. I thought that the "ear" on that bracket was supposed to move with the adjusting bolt. The adjusting bolt (which looks to be a custom part) wouldn't be long enough to accommodate another nut and washer. Maybe I'm just not imagining this correctly. Well, I think it'll have to wait for a non-rainy day when I can get under the car and see all this. Thanks for the fast feedback though.

I think I have everything arranged correctly. Here's another angle. Perhaps that'll help for you to see if I have it wrong?
Still way short for me.
Still way short for me.
Way short.png (697.06 KiB) Viewed 9254 times
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by dwcains »

You can try it a few ways, but it might be easier to just put the rear wing of the compressor outside (to the rear) of the adapter bracket. It's impossible to tell what's best without the parts on the car, because of the differences in your hardware versus mine. The thickness of the nuts/washers may be different. It's not so bad once you get it all mounted, because you can loosen things up and slide it fore-and-aft to see how it needs to line up, make note of the gaps, and the nuts/washers needed. When you need to change hardware, just do the front or rear at one time, so the compressor stays in place, which will save a lot of muscle power. When checking alignment, I like to have a belt in place, rather than just sighting the pulleys.
Dean
Lutz, FL

'85 635 CSi Euro #9402254
'87 Spider Veloce
'92 Spider Veloce
'08 350Z

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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by sansouci »

Song,
If you are doing a tranny filter change, I think the pan bolts are torx and not allen. Those with more hands on knowledge should confirm this. I have also been advised to replace them with standard hex bolts to provide a more rugged head. Torque spec is not high so use a 1/4" torque wrench......
Sansouci
84 E24 633Csi Auto, Bronzit/PearlBeige 6997510
93 E32 740il M60 Auto, Alpenweis/Ultramarine
60 528i M30 5-speed Green/Beige (crushed)
71 240Z 4-speed White/Blue (rusty & sold)
65 396 Chevelle 4-speed, Marina Blue/Black (stolen)
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AC Disassembly Day

Post by songzunhuang »

So I spent half the day getting all the major A/C parts out of the car. It was not as easy as I had hoped. Also, it's really tricky matching up the new mount and ensuring that it'll line up correctly. There's lots to do.

First, I didn't realize there's actually a sequence that you need to follow to get the old compressor out of the car. It's tight down there. I was tempted to just cut the last hose as the compressor was hanging. I managed to avoid that. I had to reassemble parts of it in order to get back to the right sequence. BTW, if you have an old compressor with an air damper, you do not need to remove the metal hose from the high side of the compressor leading to the damper.
After a long time, the compressor was hanging.
After a long time, the compressor was hanging.
Hanging Compressor.png (1.14 MiB) Viewed 9066 times
The next step was to get the condenser and the auxiliary fan out. Man, that was hard! First, I could not get my front grilles off due to frozen screws holding the front turn signal lights on. So it was a trick getting to all the screws. There are 4 holding the condenser, two on top and two on bottom. The wiring harness was a bitch! I had to pry the heck out of the harness and split parts of it. It was really corroded.
This assembly is so heavy just because of the fan. The condenser is really light.
This assembly is so heavy just because of the fan. The condenser is really light.
Fan Assembly.png (943.59 KiB) Viewed 9066 times
I spent the next hour trying to match up the measurements of the new compressor to the old. In the end, I didn't have the right combination of screws, washers and bolts to make it all match. In fact, I can't figure out how the assembly would be tight and reliable without some bolt sleeves that I haven't seen anyone use. If I don't have the bolt sleeve between the adjustable assembly, tightening the adjustment bolt will simply squeeze and bend the bracket. I also discovered that the electrical connector from the old compressor will need to be moved to the new compressor.
The new compressor and custom brackets are great, but there much more to do.
The new compressor and custom brackets are great, but there much more to do.
Comnp Measure.png (876.86 KiB) Viewed 9066 times
Finally, I scratched my head trying to figure out how to create the right mounting points on the generic parallel flow condenser. There are three mounting points for the fan and four for the condenser. I will need to save this for another day.
The size looks good, but mounting will be a challenge.
The size looks good, but mounting will be a challenge.
Condenser Compare.png (1.36 MiB) Viewed 9066 times
The good news is that my car is a lot lighter and the weather is cooling down so I don't have to worry about being too hot with no A/C for a while.
-----
Song Huang
1984 633CSi
Last 7 of VIN: 6997383
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by baders »

Song this is what I plan to do for mounting the condenser.

1) Remove the existing bracket on old condenser (drill out rivets).
condenser01.jpg
condenser01.jpg (401.97 KiB) Viewed 9046 times
2) Mount an aluminium angle piece to the new condenser.
condenser02.jpg
condenser02.jpg (422.21 KiB) Viewed 9046 times
3) Fix old bracket to new condenser by screwing to the aluminium angle.
condenser03.jpg
condenser03.jpg (432.38 KiB) Viewed 9046 times
The lower mounting points I will fabricate from the supplied brackets.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by dwcains »

Great idea. I've got the custom condensor from Classic Auto Air, and that's very similar to what they have done.
Dean
Lutz, FL

'85 635 CSi Euro #9402254
'87 Spider Veloce
'92 Spider Veloce
'08 350Z

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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

baders wrote:Song this is what I plan to do for mounting the condenser.

1) Remove the existing bracket on old condenser (drill out rivets).

2) Mount an aluminium angle piece to the new condenser.

3) Fix old bracket to new condenser by screwing to the aluminium angle.

The lower mounting points I will fabricate from the supplied brackets.
Beautiful! I was coming to the same conclusion to reuse the top bracket by drilling out the rivets! I had thought about angle piece. Great idea.

How about the lower 2 mounts for the fan? Have you figured something for that?
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by baders »

songzunhuang wrote:
baders wrote:
How about the lower 2 mounts for the fan? Have you figured something for that?
I'll just be fabricating a couple of brackets to suit.
1986 635csi LOCUTUS / Arktis Blau Metallic / Pearl Beige / S38B36/ Close ratio dogleg 5sp
2002 E46 M3 / Topaz Blau Metallic / Black Nappa / 6 speed SMG software tuned / Bilstein PSS10 Coilovers / CMP RACP reinforcement
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