1984 633CSi Rises again!

[raykoke]

Song, I believe condensation will occur on the exposed metal hose/fitting sections at the evaporator. I'd suggest using this:

https://nostalgicac.com/insulation-cork ... -roll.html

I know evaporators sure do produce a lot of waste water when running!

Cheers,

[songzunhuang]

Song, I believe condensation will occur on the exposed metal hose/fitting sections at the evaporator. I'd suggest using this:

https://nostalgicac.com/insulation-cork ... -roll.html

I know evaporators sure do produce a lot of waste water when running!

Cheers,

Ah, so that looks like the stuff I was cutting off! I didn't know it was still available. Good to know it's available and I may use some of it to insulate a few areas, but I am not going back into the evaporation core anytime soon!

So, I'm wondering. If I didn't use this stuff to cover the copper coiled sensor of the expansion valve, what effect will it have on my A/C performance? Any idea?

[raykoke]

I think any effect will be negligible.

But, I think you may get wet carpet.

:)

[dwcains]

Song, I believe condensation will occur on the exposed metal hose/fitting sections at the evaporator. I'd suggest using this:

https://nostalgicac.com/insulation-cork ... -roll.html

I know evaporators sure do produce a lot of waste water when running!

Cheers,

Ah, so that looks like the stuff I was cutting off! I didn't know it was still available. Good to know it's available and I may use some of it to insulate a few areas, but I am not going back into the evaporation core anytime soon!

So, I'm wondering. If I didn't use this stuff to cover the copper coiled sensor of the expansion valve, what effect will it have on my A/C performance? Any idea?

Definitely use that insulating tape. I found something very similar on eBay, and it's a requirement here in FL with the high humidity.

[sansouci]

I just did some research for the expansion valve. Best deal seems to be RMEUROPEAN parts for an Egelhof at $27.35 which is supposed to be OEM for p/n 64511372077. There are others (i.e., dubious) that are cheaper and the BMW branded item is $112.21 at ECS Tuning. I can't get into the Egelhof catalog to see if there are any technical differences when going from R12 to R134a. It seems to be a type TXV o-ring with an 8" capillary tube.
Luckily I don't have a back seat unit which simplifies things.
Cheers,
Ken

[songzunhuang]

I just did some research for the expansion valve. Best deal seems to be RMEUROPEAN parts for an Egelhof at $27.35 which is supposed to be OEM for p/n 64511372077. There are others (i.e., dubious) that are cheaper and the BMW branded item is $112.21 at ECS Tuning. I can't get into the Egelhof catalog to see if there are any technical differences when going from R12 to R134a. It seems to be a type TXV o-ring with an 8" capillary tube.
Luckily I don't have a back seat unit which simplifies things.
Cheers,
Ken

Ken, I got mine at Autohaus AZ. It wasn't that much more.
64511468475. AC Expansion Valve $34.60

I think if you order over a certain amount ($49 to $75), then the shipping is free. Anyway, just wanted to offer up some options.
BTW - the other day I was driving and it got up to 90 degrees outside. My A/C vent temp was pretty steady at 54-56. It didn't seem to matter if it was 75 or 90 outside, it would stay in that range. It's almost like that's my steady state. It's not as cold as the 44 I saw while testing, but it did keep the cabin cool enough.

I am pondering whether or not to try and make it better or just let it be. It's good enough for the climate I am in.

[songzunhuang]

So I did a few things today to the car. First, I finally got around to changing the coolant overflow reservoir. Like so many folks, mine was opaque. I got a new reservoir and replaced it.

Old vs New reservoir

IMG_3491.JPG (157.97 KiB) Viewed 10628 times

After I got it all in, I refilled the G50 coolant. It's so nice to be able to visually see the reservoir coolant level.

Amazing, I can visually inspect the reservoir. First time ever.

IMG_3498.JPG (157 KiB) Viewed 10628 times

I also checked my AC again. It was 80 degrees out and here's the reading that I saw. It was spot on for R134a at the ambient temp at 28 low and 220 high. So, I guess my system just runs at 48-56 degree range. I thought it should be colder, but the pressures are fine.

28-30 low, 200-220 high. This is in range for a R134a system.

IMG_3495.JPG (162.73 KiB) Viewed 10628 times

Finally, I did some troubleshooting on my no crank starter. I cleaned and checked several grounds and it's fine. I troubleshooted the neutral safety switch and it checked out fine. The yellow/black wire going to the started solenoid doesn't energize when I turn the key. All I can think of is the ignition switch. That's the only thing I haven't checked. So, I ordered a new BMW ignition switch. That's what's next.

[hornhospital]

Did you check for voltage on the starter circuit at the switch (or at the connector down the steering column)? I hope your new switch cures the problem. Mine didn't.

[songzunhuang]

Did you check for voltage on the starter circuit at the switch (or at the connector down the steering column)? I hope your new switch cures the problem. Mine didn't.

Ken, I did recall your comment about the switch. I did check for voltage at the starter. It's there. I also checked that the yellow/black wire energized when the key turned. It did not. I removed and cleaned all the grounds and then reinstalled. I broke out my multimeter to be sure that the grounds were good by checking various points in the engine against the newly cleaned grounds. Everything checked out.

I then crawled under the dash, checked the relay again. While I was there I checked the operation of the neutral safety switch. It works fine. In my case, the ignition switch is about the last thing. So, I thought I'd give it a go. May as well eliminate that. Fingers crossed as my no-start is getting steadily worse. It used to die when it was warm out. The other day, it died and it was only about 70 degrees.

[songzunhuang]

BigCoupe folks, I was hoping someone could help me decode a part of the wiring diagram for the starter circuit. I recently verified that my Yel/Blk wire to the starter to trigger it does not energize when I turn the key. I started looking at a wiring diagram and noticed that a lot of yellow black wires homerun to 2 spots according to the wiring diagram. C101 and S110.

I know that C101 is by the fusebox, but where is S110?
Here's a electrical diagram for reference. The junction in question is in the red circle.

Starter circuit for the 1984 633CSi

Screen Shot 2017-08-15 at 2.20.02 PM.png (312.16 KiB) Viewed 10585 times

I was going to start tracing wires for continuity. Thanks for any help.

[baders]

Song I suspect you are on the right track. S110 is a splice. Splices are not represented in the 1983 633 ETM, but are in the 1986 ETM. Location as below. Check for 12v at the start relay (pin 87, pin 30), thermo time switch (G), K5 and 7 (85), and pin 11 at the diagnostic connector. This will narrow it down.

splice s110.PNG (20.67 KiB) Viewed 10574 times

[songzunhuang]

Song I suspect you are on the right track. S110 is a splice. Splices are not represented in the 1983 633 ETM, but are in the 1986 ETM. Location as below. Check for 12v at the start relay (pin 87, pin 30), thermo time switch (G), K5 and 7 (85), and pin 11 at the diagnostic connector. This will narrow it down.

splice s110.PNG

Thanks for this. Another clue to tracking this down.
The thermo time switch is an interesting item. Since my problem seems to vary with temperature in a lot of cases, I am wondering how and where this is located. You mentioned "G". I don't see a "G" anywhere in the diagrams. However, my understanding of the Thermo-time switch is that it controls the start injector for cold starts, so I am not sure this could disable the starter. Am I understanding this wrong?

[sansouci]

oops

[sansouci]

Song,
Isn't it plugged into the top of the thermostat housing? Go to realoem:
6' E24 633CSi COOLING SYSTEM-THERMOSTAT/WATER HOSES

I can't figure out how to include the diagram from the website, but you know the drill. I think you will need to find an aftermarket equivalent as i suspect it is NLA

Is the splice at the positive battery connection?

[baders]

Song I suspect you are on the right track. S110 is a splice. Splices are not represented in the 1983 633 ETM, but are in the 1986 ETM. Location as below. Check for 12v at the start relay (pin 87, pin 30), thermo time switch (G), K5 and 7 (85), and pin 11 at the diagnostic connector. This will narrow it down.

splice s110.PNG

Thanks for this. Another clue to tracking this down.
The thermo time switch is an interesting item. Since my problem seems to vary with temperature in a lot of cases, I am wondering how and where this is located. You mentioned "G". I don't see a "G" anywhere in the diagrams. However, my understanding of the Thermo-time switch is that it controls the start injector for cold starts, so I am not sure this could disable the starter. Am I understanding this wrong?

No, all I'm suggesting is testing points to find what has happened to your 12v on BK/YL. You have a hard fault now yes ? No 12v at terminal 50 at the starter. You need, with your multimeter, to track down why this is so. The points I mentioned will help you do that. Point "G" is the BK/YL wire to the thermo time switch. Not suggesting the TTS has anything to do with the starting problem, but it is a point to test.

[songzunhuang]

Allright, I'm inspecting and trying to understand all things electrical now. This is in hopes of eventually tracking down my intermittent issue of my starter refusing to crank with the ignition key. Today, it started in the morning just fine but wouldn't start in the afternoon. I started to track down various points where splices or junctions occur and I came across a few head scratchers.

First, on the top of my fusebox, there's this rectangular relay. It's unmarked and I don't recall seeing this in any pictures of the fusebox for these cars.It is located to the right of the main relay.

What is this rectangular relay for?

IMG_3511.jpg (126.95 KiB) Viewed 10541 times

When I pull up the relay, there's a bundle of green wires leading to it and there seems to be a lot of connections. These don't look factory to me. Here's a shot of this area.

Are all these taped and zipped wires factory?

IMG_3512.jpg (113.91 KiB) Viewed 10541 times

What do others see in this area? I was tracing the Blk/Yel wire from the starter when I came across this and started wondering. Allright, thanks in advance for any insight.

[songzunhuang]

Song I suspect you are on the right track. S110 is a splice. Splices are not represented in the 1983 633 ETM, but are in the 1986 ETM. Location as below. Check for 12v at the start relay (pin 87, pin 30), thermo time switch (G), K5 and 7 (85), and pin 11 at the diagnostic connector. This will narrow it down.

splice s110.PNG

Thanks for this. Another clue to tracking this down.
The thermo time switch is an interesting item. Since my problem seems to vary with temperature in a lot of cases, I am wondering how and where this is located. You mentioned "G". I don't see a "G" anywhere in the diagrams. However, my understanding of the Thermo-time switch is that it controls the start injector for cold starts, so I am not sure this could disable the starter. Am I understanding this wrong?

No, all I'm suggesting is testing points to find what has happened to your 12v on BK/YL. You have a hard fault now yes ? No 12v at terminal 50 at the starter. You need, with your multimeter, to track down why this is so. The points I mentioned will help you do that. Point "G" is the BK/YL wire to the thermo time switch. Not suggesting the TTS has anything to do with the starting problem, but it is a point to test.

Got it. Thanks.
My Blk/Yel wire goes from the starter into a sleeve and then is really hard to trace. I can't seem to spot where the wire comes out again, I don't see other Blk/Yel wires on casual inspection. It's weird because the wiring diagram has lots of Blk/Yel wires. Anyhow, I'm just stealing moment to take a look. I won't have time to really track it down until the weekend.

[sansouci]

Song,
My 6 doesn't have that do-dad. I have an empty spot there.
BTW the TTS p/n was superceded and seems to be available.
Going back to the start of this thread, you found a dead rat under the console. Did you check for gnawed wires way back then?
Ken

[raykoke]

Backing up a bit (I was absent because my laptop was down), how are you measuring a/c temps?

Best way is low speed, recirculating air temp (unless you can stick a probe into the evap core).

Higher fan speeds will warm the core.

GL with your ignition power troubleshooting!

[songzunhuang]

Backing up a bit (I was absent because my laptop was down), how are you measuring a/c temps?

Best way is low speed, recirculating air temp (unless you can stick a probe into the evap core).

Higher fan speeds will warm the core.

GL with your ignition power troubleshooting!

I have an A/C vent thermometer. I believe there are a few pictures a few pages back where you can see it.
I do use recirculating, which I think it the only way the e24 seems to know how to do A/C. I have run it at high and lower fan speeds and I get pretty consistent temp ranges.

I have a new ignition switch coming Saturday and I really hope that's the issue. I'll put it in Sunday and we shall see.

[songzunhuang]

Song,
My 6 doesn't have that do-dad. I have an empty spot there.
BTW the TTS p/n was superceded and seems to be available.
Going back to the start of this thread, you found a dead rat under the console. Did you check for gnawed wires way back then?
Ken

Oh yeah, the fossilized rat. I have poked around quite a but under the dash and in the A/C area and it doesn't look like the fossilized rodent had any affinity for wires. I've not seen any gnawed wires. I wish I could say the same for the carpet and some rubber bits. I do keep my eye out for anything that looks odd and fix it whenever I can.

Thanks for the suggestion. All are good at this point when I am just scratching my head about it.

[songzunhuang]

Here's a quick recap of the work it took to swap out my ignition switch. Let's cut to the chase. I have remedied my intermittent starter crank issue. All weekend I've been starting the car at different times and temperatures and it has cranked over solidly every time! Yay! Of course it wasn't as easy as I had hoped. This ended up being a 5 hour ordeal. What took so long?

First we had to remove the lower kick panel, steering wheel and the plastic lower cover. That was easy. Then, I had to remove all of the various stalks (turn signal, wiper and cruise control). This revealed the 4 security bolts that had to be drilled out and extracted. I hate security bolts. This ended up being 2 trips to the hardware store. The first trip to get a bolt extractor and the second trip to get some stainless steel bolts to replace the security bolts that I drilled out and extracted.

I hate security screws. Here I am extracting one of 4 screws.

SecurityScrews.jpg (99.74 KiB) Viewed 10425 times

I then had to remove all the bolts holding the upper part of the steering column in place. There were 4 bolts in all. That wasn't so bad. Two bolts in the rear when the steering column pivots, and one bolt on the left and right sides. This exposed all of the wiring harnesses including the one of the ignition switch. I had ordered a new switch and put a black line on the new switch to make it easier to line up with the grub screw.

Black mark on switch to line up grub screw.

MarkonSwitch.jpg (79.46 KiB) Viewed 10425 times

Then, I noticed something weird. The new switch I received was missing a wire. There was a red/white wire on my old harness that wasn't on my new one! Ahhh! After checking that all other wires and connectors were the same, I did some surgery on my old harness to harvest the wire to place into my new harness. This required a razor saw and a bit of prying. When you purchase a switch, make double sure that all necessary wires are there!

New harness on top, missing a red/white wire.

Switches.jpg (117.51 KiB) Viewed 10425 times

After I got the wire transferred, I re-taped the harness with some friction tape. Inserting the new switch into the aluminum upper steering wheel cover was a pain in the ass! What stumped me for about an hour was a tiny piece of plastic that had broken off the old harness and lodged itself in the area where the tab for the grub screw goes. You cannot see this area as it's deep in the recess. I couldn't get the new switch seated and almost lost my mind. Finally, I got a slim pick and dug around blindly in there and the little piece of broken plastic fell out. Only after all this did my new switch seat correctly so I could line up the hole where the grub screw secured the tab on the new switch.

Finally, as I was going to put back the lower dash piece, the old cardboard gave way and separated from the lower dash. I took a few straps of nylon and epoxied the cardboard part to the lower dash part. Why the heck did they rivet cardboard onto this!?

Epoxying the lower dash pieces together.

Kickpanel.jpg (146.75 KiB) Viewed 10425 times

At least it all worked after everything was reassembled. Also in the process of doing all this, I found every major ground point and wire brushed and sprayed it with electronic cleaners. I know I have a solid ground contact now.

All subsequent tests for the next day was great. I tried at least 5 times a days. In the past the starter wouldn't crank when it was warm. Well, it was plenty warm and it cranked reliably each time. I can also feel the difference when I turn the key. The contact points and start is much more solid now. In the coming week we will for sure see if this was the issue. Fingers crossed.

===< Update 8/25/17 >===
It's been about a week now and I have used my car every day in all kinds of conditions. I've put over 200 miles on the car this week and it hasn't skipped a beat. I can only conclude that the switch was the problem.

[86_6series]

Look at folio 115. I would check the associated grounds of ignition, seat belt

and door jamb switches. Sounds like a completed ground to me.

I'd double check for a grounded ign switch first.

I picked 1984 633 ETM.

http://wedophones.com/Manuals/BMW/1984% ... Manual.pdf

if that's not your year here is the full site.

http://wedophones.com/BMWManualsLead.htm

good luck

[zinnocoupe]

Nice job on the switch replacement. I like the way you always include all the problems you have. What a pain, security screws. I never had that problem when I parted my 83 633 as I just removed the whole column. Must feel good to have that sorted.

[songzunhuang]

Look at folio 115. I would check the associated grounds of ignition, seat belt

and door jamb switches. Sounds like a completed ground to me.

I'd double check for a grounded ign switch first.

I picked 1984 633 ETM.

http://wedophones.com/Manuals/BMW/1984% ... Manual.pdf

if that's not your year here is the full site.

http://wedophones.com/BMWManualsLead.htm

good luck

Interesting. I was just checking the ETM and it looks like the red/white wire I added is specifically for the buzzer. I may go disconnect that wire and see what happens. It can't hurt...

==< Update 8/25/17 >===
I disconnected the red/white wire and the buzzer is no more. Everything else is fine.