1979 Euro 635csi

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zinnocoupe
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by zinnocoupe »

Spasso, OK thx for the input. I'm also not looking for a hotter cam at all. I would love to just have the exact same cam to keep the same low down torque curve this engine is known for. Thx again
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1979 Euro 635ci no longer a basketcase, just a running rust bucket!
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by Spasso »

My research of the M90 engine revealed that they have a bit shorter stroke and larger bore than the later M30 and revved quite nicely.
It also had higher compression ratio (10:1). That makes a big difference to the 8:1 US spec.
The one in my '79 delivered nice power in the upper RPM ranges while still maintaining decent low end torque.
I don't think you can go wrong by ordering the cam that is listed in RealOEM by using your VIN to do the search.
It should be the correct cam that your car came out of the factory with.
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by GRNSHRK »

Minor correction on the CR there Spasso, as I "believe" that the stock CR the M90 was 9.3:1, not 10:1 :-k

Can anybody confirm or deny that [-o<

Still, way better than the emissions restricted M30B32/B34 version, at 8:1 as duly noted #-o
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by tschultz »

GRNSHRK wrote:Minor correction on the CR there Spasso, as I "believe" that the stock CR the M90 was 9.3:1, not 10:1 :-k

Can anybody confirm or deny that [-o<

Still, way better than the emissions restricted M30B32/B34 version, at 8:1 as duly noted #-o
I believe you are correct. 9.3 was my understanding as well.

Also I think the m30b35 cam is the same as the m90. This would agree with 88+ 635's that realoem listed.

This is good info as I plan to do some head work on my m90 in the next few months
http://www.Drive4Corners.com
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'79 635CSi Revival
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zinnocoupe
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by zinnocoupe »

Also I think the m30b35 cam is the same as the m90. This would agree with 88+ 635's that realoem listed.
Not to labour the point but realoem gives this part no for my 79 by VIN no 11311269497 which is NLA
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part?id ... 1311269497

And this part no for the B35 cam 11319058576 superseded to 11311287606 which is the Febi Biltein cam listed on Pelican
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showpar ... Id=11_0431

It doesn't look like the same cam to me, possibly similar or same profile, but different nos. I've seen several posts talking about the B35 being an "upgrade" replacement.
Unless I've missed something, please correct me
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by Spasso »

GRNSHRK wrote:Minor correction on the CR there Spasso, as I "believe" that the stock CR the M90 was 9.3:1, not 10:1 :-k

Can anybody confirm or deny that [-o<

Still, way better than the emissions restricted M30B32/B34 version, at 8:1 as duly noted #-o
Ha, a guru showed up. Thank you for the correction, going off memory which isn't all that great sometimes
Last edited by Spasso on Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by Spasso »

zinnocoupe wrote:
Also I think the m30b35 cam is the same as the m90. This would agree with 88+ 635's that realoem listed.
Not to labour the point but realoem gives this part no for my 79 by VIN no 11311269497 which is NLA
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part?id ... 1311269497

And this part no for the B35 cam 11319058576 superseded to 11311287606 which is the Febi Biltein cam listed on Pelican
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showpar ... Id=11_0431

It doesn't look like the same cam to me, possibly similar or same profile, but different nos. I've seen several posts talking about the B35 being an "upgrade" replacement.
Unless I've missed something, please correct me
The build date on my old 79' Euro was 12/78 and lists the 11311707151 which is "ended". Next is 11311269497 and after that is 11319058576 with the notation "ADD. HARDENED".
Curious to know how the profiles compare.

The Pelican listing says NLA on the 11311269497 but Turner Motorsports says still available. It might be worth double checking on this.

Also, according to Pelican listing the 11311287606 is superseded BY the 11319058576, not the other way around.
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by zinnocoupe »

Spasso, Im surprised thats the only mistake I made :D Thx for the info regarding Turner,I may check that out.

I took both cams in to a local cam grinding shop today. Cool place, its been in business for 60 years. Very old school. The guy there measured both cams and the B32 has the same lift but the duration was much less. More of a wimpy cam he said. I didn't get any numbers from him but will. He had a book with all these cams they had worked on over the years. He said the M90 cam matched the 1977 530i cam. They had patterns for grinding that profile and is going to grind, weld new metal onto my worn lobe and regrind all the lobes to keep the same profile. He said they grind metal off the back of the lobe and thats how they can grind the top of the lobe and retain the correct profile. I never heard of this but he said they do it all the time. Anyone have any experience with this?
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1979 Euro 635ci no longer a basketcase, just a running rust bucket!
1977 530i Partially restored and running now!
1987 635csi 60K KM Garage Queen
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zinnocoupe
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by zinnocoupe »

tschultz wrote:
GRNSHRK wrote:Minor correction on the CR there Spasso, as I "believe" that the stock CR the M90 was 9.3:1, not 10:1 :-k

Can anybody confirm or deny that [-o<

Still, way better than the emissions restricted M30B32/B34 version, at 8:1 as duly noted #-o
I believe you are correct. 9.3 was my understanding as well.

Also I think the m30b35 cam is the same as the m90. This would agree with 88+ 635's that realoem listed.

This is good info as I plan to do some head work on my m90 in the next few months
tschultz, funny I was just looking around for more M90 and I found a quote by you on bimmerforums
The head is similar to a M30B34 head, and the cam is the same as a M30B35 (but the part number is different). Also the standard 135mm rods as I understand.
This makes sense to me!

A very informative post for sure:
http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showt ... M30-vs-M90
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1979 Euro 635ci no longer a basketcase, just a running rust bucket!
1977 530i Partially restored and running now!
1987 635csi 60K KM Garage Queen
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by Spasso »

There was talk earlier of the preference to use the B35 cam on a rebuild so just for fun I looked up the cam for a 1993 535i (which by then should be a B35) and the part number was 11311287606. (This is what is listed for mine as well)
So if you did want to go with a new cam it looks like this part number would be satisfactory.

As far as the regrind on your cam, it sounds like standard procedure to me. How does it compare cost-wise?

Another note, did your cam grinder suggest new rocker arms? You should on a fresh grind.
Last edited by Spasso on Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by zinnocoupe »

Right, so that B35 cam no. is again the Febi Bilstein. Nice to know there is that reasonably priced option. I' am tempted to get it just to compare to my original just to see the difference.

Cost of the repair and regrind is CAN $150. So cheaper than the Febi. I would rather just keep it stock as well so I'm happy he could do it. He did recommend new rockers, but also said I could reuse my old ones as long as they were in great shape. The B32 ones look really nice to me. He said to take 250 grit emory clothe on a flat surface and carefully polish the curved surface to remove any imperfections. Any rockers with serious marks or dimples shouldn't be used. I may do this.

I'm sure there are some, maybe all of you wonder why I am being so cheap, "why not just do it properly?' This is a poorly maintained old , higher mileage engine. It could have any number of things wrong with it. For sure it needs rebuilding. There is definitely wear on the cylinder bores, you can feel it. At this point I just want to see if it will run. No doubt I'll be removing the engine/trans at some point and fully refurbishing it all.If I was going to do this properly I would have replaced the valve guides, valves, new cam. Just don't want to fill a head with new parts and have it self destruct when I start it. Right now I don't have a place to do all that but next year I will. Thats my thinking now. I also would like to get it running so I can get it out of my driveway so the new garage can be built.

Spasso, Thx for all the help you've been with part nos etc. Nice to have someone with previous M90 experience. I'm wondering where are you north of Seattle. I'm down in there getting parts etc all the time. Seems to be a treasure trove of old BMW stuff in Seattle
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1979 Euro 635ci no longer a basketcase, just a running rust bucket!
1977 530i Partially restored and running now!
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by tschultz »

Always good to have this information documented.

I got that quote about the cam part numbers from mye28 as I thought I may find it useful later =D> .
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by zinnocoupe »

OK so my cam is still in being repaired/reground. I told the guy at the shop no rush and haven't heard from him for a while. I got to stop doing that.
While I was there he measured my cam:
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I never did find out the actual degree numbers or what ever my original cam was or the B32 one either.He just said that the B32 cam was lower duration and lower performance. I just wanted to keep the stock profile.

Cool wall of cams:
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While I have been waiting I did the big clean up on the piston tops:
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It came pretty clean, maybe not show car clean but alright. There are still kind of stains left by the gasket. The worst part was cleaning all the gunk out of the head bolt thread holes. My hands got sore twisting up paper towel and poking it into the bolt holes. Boring!!!

One cool thing I found on the top of the drivers seat was a BMW roundel decal embossed into the leather. I've seen these on the outer side of the recaros before but never on top like this. I didn't see it until I lifted up the headrest. Only the drivers side had it:
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Too bad its in bad shape. That part of the seat will have to be replaced anyways as the bolsters are both shredded.
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Last edited by zinnocoupe on Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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1979 Euro 635ci no longer a basketcase, just a running rust bucket!
1977 530i Partially restored and running now!
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by Spasso »

zinnocoupe wrote:Right, so that B35 cam no. is again the Febi Bilstein. Nice to know there is that reasonably priced option. I' am tempted to get it just to compare to my original just to see the difference.

Cost of the repair and regrind is CAN $150. So cheaper than the Febi. I would rather just keep it stock as well so I'm happy he could do it. He did recommend new rockers, but also said I could reuse my old ones as long as they were in great shape. The B32 ones look really nice to me. He said to take 250 grit emory clothe on a flat surface and carefully polish the curved surface to remove any imperfections. Any rockers with serious marks or dimples shouldn't be used. I may do this.

I'm sure there are some, maybe all of you wonder why I am being so cheap, "why not just do it properly?' This is a poorly maintained old , higher mileage engine. It could have any number of things wrong with it. For sure it needs rebuilding. There is definitely wear on the cylinder bores, you can feel it. At this point I just want to see if it will run. No doubt I'll be removing the engine/trans at some point and fully refurbishing it all.If I was going to do this properly I would have replaced the valve guides, valves, new cam. Just don't want to fill a head with new parts and have it self destruct when I start it. Right now I don't have a place to do all that but next year I will. Thats my thinking now. I also would like to get it running so I can get it out of my driveway so the new garage can be built.

Spasso, Thx for all the help you've been with part nos etc. Nice to have someone with previous M90 experience. I'm wondering where are you north of Seattle. I'm down in there getting parts etc all the time. Seems to be a treasure trove of old BMW stuff in Seattle
- What you are doing and how makes sense from a cost stand-point. Kind of a shame to do all this work without the best possible outcome. Of course you may be surprised when you fire it up.
- If you reuse the rockers graduate to 600 grit if you can. The smoother the better.

- As far as guys with previous M90 experience, Tom Schultz (tschultz), Bobbo (GRNSHRK) and Brucey (Brucey) are the gurus.

- I am in the Arlington area (about 1 hour 20 minutes south of the border. (on a good day).
I wish I had your time for part hunting.
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by zinnocoupe »

I took a good look at my rockers and I'm going to use the ones out of the B32. They are BMW ones in really good shape. I polished them using 220, 320,600,then 1000 emery. They'll have to do for now. I also found a radiator shop about an hour away from me that said they could recore my radiator for $295. The are checking it out now. Hopefully they'll stick to that price and not come up with a reason to charge more. I do have WTB ad up right now in case anyone does have a used rad that will work for me. Seems like its a bit of an odd size being 26.5 wide. Anyone else notice the M90 engined cars have an unusual size rad?

I'm glad to hear there are a number of gurus on here I'll need all the help I can get. I sure have appreciated all the input I've had so far :D

If your in Arlington your not far from where I picked up this car in Everett.

Its easy to have lots of time for part hunting, just stop doing anything else :shock:
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1979 Euro 635ci no longer a basketcase, just a running rust bucket!
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by Spasso »

zinnocoupe wrote:

Its easy to have lots of time for part hunting, just stop doing anything else :shock:
Yeah, I remember those days...... :wink:
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by zinnocoupe »

I haven't really been doing much on this project lately. Just cleaning some of the gross parts so they are ready to go back in. I've been putting off ordering any parts as I figured I would keep finding little things that I would need as I went along. I went to order the head gasket set and according to realoem using my last 7 vin the head gasket set for this car is 11121730780. OK so pelican has victor reinz set for $81.75. Great, I'm too cheap to pay for the OEM set. But if you click on the part no. you get this
11121730780
Gasket Set Cylinder Head Asbestos Free
From:04/11/1990To:-Weight:0.715 kgPrice:$397.40
Supersedes:

11121277779 (09/01/1982 — 07/23/1992)
Part 11121730780 was found on the following vehicles:
5' E28   (01/1981 — 08/1990)
6' E24   (12/1977 — 04/1989)
7' E23   (05/1979 — 11/1989)
WTF, how can this set do all E24s? The M90 has a bigger bore so this set should just be for the years that came with the bigger bore engine

I check realoem using the last 7 of my 1987 E24, sure enough that car also uses 11121730780 as the head gasket set. WTF is going on here?
Do any of you guys who have actually changed the head gasket on your M90 have a part no? Keep in mine that part no I'm quoting is for the full set, but I notice if I look up individual head gaskets you get the same thing. realoem gives you a part no thats good for the whole range of E24s which can't work.

I would like to order a full set so I've got everything I need. Cheers
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1979 Euro 635ci no longer a basketcase, just a running rust bucket!
1977 530i Partially restored and running now!
1987 635csi 60K KM Garage Queen
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by Spasso »

So I guess the big question here is how many millimeters difference is there between the two bore sizes. The next question is, just how accurate is the bore size on any given head gasket in relation to the bore of the block. If the difference between the two bore sizes is only a couple of millimeters then the diameter of the bore in the head gasket may have been adjusted to the larger size so it'll fit all of the M30s produced..
I'm on my phone right now or I would look it up myself. I may try to do this later on. I will also ask my brother who builds engines. He may be able to tell me just how accurate head gaskets are in relation to the block bores.
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by zinnocoupe »

Mmmmm, its an interesting idea but I don't think its possible. Its 92mm vs 93.4. If you were to use the standard M30 gasket you would have .7 mm of gasket hangover. I have both a standard m30 and m90 gasket sitting on my bench and its quite a lot of difference. I have heard that other holes, various cooling passages and oil lines don't line up on the standard m30 gasket but its not so on the b32 gasket compared to the m90 I have. It would increase compression and even thought the edge of the gasket is ringed with metal I would assume it may be damaged by combustion. I would be interested in what your brother says.

I am actually in the middle of ordering the victor reinz head gasket set from wallothnesch in the fatherland. Its about half the price of OEM. I had quite a time finding someone that sells it. Lots of emailing with Victor reinz reps.
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1979 Euro 635ci no longer a basketcase, just a running rust bucket!
1977 530i Partially restored and running now!
1987 635csi 60K KM Garage Queen
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Spasso
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by Spasso »

So, a little math.
93.4-92=1.4
1.4 divided by 2 = .70mm (spread out over the full diameter of the bore)
Converted to inches is .025756 or just under .030 inches.
That's a tough one.

Of course, IF there are oil holes and cooling passages that are different then it is a moot point. This I cannot confirm or deny.
I would take a very close look at the various passages to confirm one way or another.
It's not unheard of to make gaskets made from scratch. Turbo guys have been known to do this.
The issues with finding critical parts for for the E12 based E24 is one of the reasons I went to the E28 based Euro.

As far as "used-on" parts listings go, it's not unheard of for them to be inaccurate.
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by Spasso »

So I ran my head gasket number in RealOEM for my 1984 Euro 635, 11-12-1-730-226 and this is what I got, Elring


11121730226
Cylinder head gasket
1,72MM

Supersedes:

11121730223
(01/01/1990 — 05/29/2015), Exchangeable retrospectively
11121716223
(09/01/1986 — 06/13/1990), Exchangeable retrospectively
11121278306
(03/01/1981 — 11/24/1986), Exchangeable retrospectively
11121276000
(03/01/1982 — 07/27/1983)

Part 11121730226 was found on the following vehicles:

5' E28   (07/1984 — 12/1987)
5' E34   (03/1987 — 04/1993)
6' E24   (12/1977 — 04/1989) So this wouldn't work on an M90 either.
7' E23   (05/1979 — 06/1986)
7' E32   (10/1985 — 07/1992)

If I were you I would order strictly from your VIN and ignore above the "used-ons" commentary.
Order the Elring gasket per your VIN and it should fit the way it is supposed to.


I would also like to point out that part numbers change according to supplier on occasion
Have faith grasshopper...
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by Spasso »

GRNSHRK wrote:Minor correction on the CR there Spasso, as I "believe" that the stock CR the M90 was 9.3:1, not 10:1 :-k

Can anybody confirm or deny that [-o<

Still, way better than the emissions restricted M30B32/B34 version, at 8:1 as duly noted #-o
I think I confused the CR with my own car. Euro with piano top pistons:

Engine-------------------Displacement-------Power----------------------Torque--------------Bore---Stroke---Redline-----CR-----Year
M30B34
North America (catalyst)---3428 cc---136 kW (182 hp) @ 5400---290 N·m (210 lb·ft) @ 4000---92mm---86mm----6200-----8.0---1985

M30B34
Europe (non-catalyst)------3428 cc---160 kW (218 hp) @ 5800---310 N·m (228 lb·ft) @ 4200---92mm---86mm----6200----10.0----1985

M90--------------------- 3453 cc---160 kW (218 hp) @5200--304 N·m (224 lb·ft) @4000--93.4 mm-84 mm----------9.3----1978–1982

M30B35-------------------3428 cc---155 kW (208 hp) @ 5700---305 N·m (225 lb·ft) @ 4000-----92mm---86mm----6200----9.0----1988

I tried to be accurate with the numbers, cross referencing from multiple sources.
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by zinnocoupe »

Spasso, Wow thats a lot of info there.

So I have had a big run around trying to find an aftermarket supplier for the head gasket set.I'm looking for this set 11129059247. The Genuine is available from Tischer for $316 which is over $400 Can. Seems like a lot. After spending a long time emailing with the victor reinz rep and trying all kinds of dealers they suggested in Canada and the US I came up with nada. Seems like no one anywhere in North America sells the Victor reinz set and Victor Reinz was zero help at all. They told me maybe 12 places to contact and then stopped answering my emails. The elring set is available from Bluntech but they said it could be 8-12 weeks for a special order. Pelican was really weird. I did the online chat thing a number of times and got a different story every time. In the end I came up with zip from them. I finally found the Victor Reinz set from Walloth & Necsh for $170. Its ordered and on the way. I also have about four other orders of various parts coming.

I have found Realoem to be of course an invaluable tool to find all these part numbers etc, but so many parts it will say a part is used on E24 1977-1989. Which is impossible as there were so many changes and different engines etc through the years. Anyway I sure hope this set is the right one. Walloth & Necsh did confirm its the right one for the M90. I'm just cleaning more gross oily parts getting ready for the parts to arrive. I didn't get any pics but the inside of the valve cover had about 3 pounds of gunk built up on it. I wish I had a parts washer.
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1979 Euro 635ci no longer a basketcase, just a running rust bucket!
1977 530i Partially restored and running now!
1987 635csi 60K KM Garage Queen
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by Spasso »

I think you are on the right track ordering the head gasket strictly by part number and I would recommend that you ignore the references(1977 - 1989.)

A lot of people don't even know that an M90 engine exists and that's probably why they list the coverage the way they do.

If you go to the Engine section of this forum you will find other people have also had difficulty in finding an M90 head gasket. They have been told that they have to be made special order so the lead time is weeks and weeks.

For even more specific info on your M90 go to http://www.firstfives.org/. This is the info you need for E12 stuff on your car.
Http://www.my28.com/ is also handy.
Last edited by Spasso on Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 1979 Euro 635csi

Post by Spasso »

Your comments about sludge is concerning.
If you can, try to flush all the oil passages you can before reassembly.
Make sure your spray bar isn't plugged.
On first start up I would run the engine just long enough to break the cam in , about 20 or 30 minutes and immediately drain the oil.
Drain it again after another hour of breaking in the rings, (if you do them).
Change the filter each time.
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