Speakers 4x6 fronts

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GazM3
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by GazM3 »

That looks a good solution there. It's an awfully big hole though. Would 2x 8" subs work just as well?
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by baders »

In the location behind the rear seat rest ? I think you would have problems finding the space to make them fit width/height wise. The single 12" Alpine above took up most of the vertical space in this area.

In response to Brucey. No, I don't carry anything pointy in the boot in this car.
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by GazM3 »

I bought a Blaupunckt? active 8". I have a few other cars I can put it in if it doesnt fit either under the front seat, or in the section behind the rear armrest where baders sub was installed but with no cutting
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by baders »

A single 8" will fit behind the rear rest OK, but you will still need to cut a hole in the bulkhead.
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by kos »

I wouldnt be cutting the rear bulkhead like that :shock:

and i don't think you need to either to get bass in tot he cabin. I run 2 10's in a sealed box and there is more than enough bass but they are serious drivers that i have installed

for the front, i just has some builds made to house 6" components
its the only way you will ever get decent sound from the front

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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by baders »

kos wrote:I wouldnt be cutting the rear bulkhead like that :shock:

and i don't think you need to either to get bass in tot he cabin. I run 2 10's in a sealed box and there is more than enough bass but they are serious drivers that i have installed

for the front, i just has some builds made to house 6" components
its the only way you will ever get decent sound from the front
Each to their own I guess. If you are worried about structural strength when cutting out the hole, it is probably more than made up for by the structure of the subwoofer itself, which is built like a tank and bolted in. Bass response from my 12" Alpine in the correctly sized sealed box was extremely muffled, especially with road noise added. Additionally, the 4x6 Harmon Kappa's in front certainly give me the quality of sound I need.
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by kos »

the key to getting good sound from the boot/trunk is to have a good Sound processor. Ive gone for an audison bit10 and you can time align the speakers so it's crystal clear. investing in some additional sound deadening will also make a massive difference.

there's no way the 4" infinity will ever play sufficient mid bass and having the tweeter fire at your ankle is pointless. a better option would have been to go a true component set have the 4" in the for well and mount the tweeter on the top door trim or behind the wing mirror

as for cutting the rear bulkhead, that sub is no substitute to the pressed formed metal which is designing as part of the monocoque structure.
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by baders »

Right, OK :roll: It works for me, and that is what matters :wink:
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by GazM3 »

The low profile active sub is on its way. Ill let you chaps know how I go. If it dont fit in the E24 Ill put it in one of the other cars
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by Brucey »

Baders has essentially got on and done what I've been muttering about for ages. Having tried a sub or two in the boot (including a couple of Infinity 12" units in a decent box being driven off a decent amp) I concluded that if the sub was in a box in the boot;

a) it was most likely always going to be a bit shite; a bit like having a domestic sub in next room of your house, that kind of thing....

b) any passers-by would likely hear the sub better than you... :roll: and

c) I'd sooner have my boot space available for other things.

Hence the 'behind the armrest' approach. My plan did however originally include a scheme to weld a reinforcement frame round the hole in the bulkhead if necessary....

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Mark Shutt
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by Mark Shutt »

kos wrote:for the front, i just has some builds made to house 6" components
its the only way you will ever get decent sound from the front

Image
that looks superb! I intend to do something similar but don't want to wreck my original door cards so will look for some spares ones, colour isn't an issue as I'll re-trim to suit rest of car.. just the pocket part is needed I think :-k got a pair of Phase Linear Aliante 8" drivers that are very low profile depth so might give these a try 8) then kick builds and tweeter builds!
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by Brucey »

they look pretty good pods I agree but if you don't cut though the cards into doorspace behind them then, as an enclosure, they will be limited to being a small volume sealed (?) box. Most modern car audio speaker units work at their best when they have a decent volume behind them.

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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by kos »

Baders, I guessed it works for you but all I've done really is make a valid suggestion based on what I've done. My instal was first done by me and I've done a lot of work my self over the years but i commissioned a company called Studio InCar to make the builds and set it all up. I did it stages, so first was the front builds, then switching to a sealed box anf then the sound processor and difference that the sound processor made was night as was having a decent sized speaker and properly positioned tweeter up front.

The difference and improvement alone you would get by mounting tweeters in a position higher up would really be worth doing.

Bruce, yes the bass is still in th boot, even with the rear arm rest options it's still make notice from behind your ears. This is why a lot of today's SQ cars have subs in the passenger foot wells, but with the correct time alignment having the sub in the boot is not a problem. Yes you will have to make the subs work harder but it works well. My box actually has been "hard mounted" to the boot floor and up to the "rear shelf" so no energy is lost either

I've still got lots of space in the boot as well, I could have even more if I change the trim panels I have in place.

My front door cards have been cut, I have spares just in case I want to go back to 100% original (un likely though) the whole door acts as an enclosure.

My next stage will be to add more round deadening, one place which will make a big difference will be the roof when I change the headliner.
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by Brucey »

for low bass notes it doesn't much matter where the sub is positioned, the sound won't 'come from where the speaker is'.... the reason for this is that the wavelength is as long or longer than the box you are sitting in. In a car the size of an E24 anything under about 150Hz (D below middle C) is likely to start to 'come from everywhere' in the cabin. This being the case, a set of 6x4s in the front (that will typically roll off around 200Hz) is actually OK provided the lower notes can come from elsewhere.

You might well get phase differences emerging in some setups (in fact it is almost guaranteed if you put a boxed sub inside another near-sealed box i.e. the boot) but if you don't create that problem you don't then have to solve it either....

A simple approach to avoiding phase differences is to ensure that all the speakers are (as close as is practicable) the same distance from your ears. Oddly enough that is pretty close to what you get if you put speakers in the stock front mounts, in the kick panel (or on the shelf) at the rear, and a sub through the rear bulkhead.

Some people have a fundamental objection to the height of the sound stage in the absence of tweeters high up but IME getting a set that (by virtue of the units used, their location/mounting, the crossover etc) really work well is rather difficult. There are plenty of speakers (with built-in tweeters) that simply lack clarity because of crossover distortions and once you separate the drive units the problem only ever gets worse. These distortions are most commonly noticeable in the rendition of the sibilant sounds in vocals but they also affect some instruments too. In some setups I've been known to ditch speakers with separate tweeters in favour of (cheaper) ones with single voice coil, simply because they render the midrange so much more clearly.

There are some really complicated ways of getting a setup that sounds half-decent but there are some simple ways to do it too. Often, simple is good!

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Mark Shutt
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by Mark Shutt »

I find with subs anywhere around 60hz for low pass is good, any higher and it starts getting a bit locatable, it's all down to install and set up eapecially phase allingment..

As for tweeters I never liked to have them low down in kicks, it's great from a point source point of view but there's too many other factors to spoil the staging like legs getting in the way! The staging always ends up rainbowing (dipping at sides, high in centre). Much prefere them in A pillars pointing at each other or slightly angled towards listeners depending on tweeter material.
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by sharkfan »

For my M635 I went with Bruceys 'Simple is good'.

When I bought the car it had tired original dual cone 6x4's in the front and the rear pods had been butchered with 16cm two way Pioneers....equally tired. I replaced the front dual cones with some 3-way 6x4 Pioneers which have remarkably good bass and high end response for their size, and in the rear I picked up some uber-retro 1980's Pioneer 16cm 3 way speakers that have an quirky feature of having the tweeter and super-tweeter mounted so their angle can be altered dependant on their siting; the speakers all work very well together.

The rear Pioneers were second hand when I got them so when I replace them I will canabilise a set of Sony APM (Acccurate Pistonic Motion) speakers which have square woofer/midrange and tweeter units mounted on tiny pistons for outstanding response and a small round conventional super tweeter. The large woofer/midrange will be put in the butchered pod holes and the other units under the old, currently unused, 6x4 pod holes.

I also discovered that Pioneer do a compact under-seat active subwoofer which will fit nicely under the E24 passenger seat when I get round to buying one; I have used a Kenwood compact subwoofer mounted on the back of the rear seat in my E34 Touring for a few years and in the spacious Touring interior it works really well, and also copies the siting of the very rare OEM E34 Touring subwoofer system.

My E34 Touring was also fitted with fairly basic (and tired) original speakers with 2 way components in the front (kick panel and dash top) and basic dual cones in the rear roof panel. I disassembled a set of nice fairly high end Sony 3 way component bookshelf speakers and mounted the 3 components in the OEM front 3 locations after buying the OEM door mirror tweeter covers - again, it works beautifully with fantastic staging from each of the components, incredibly clear good separation. I have also now obtained the OEM Touring forward facing rear tweeter grills so will eventually fit some two way component speaker sets in the rear for an eventual 10 component speaker + subwoofer system.

My E39 Touring came with the top of the range 10 speaker + subwoofer DSP system but as anyone who has this set-up will tell you, the OEM sub is pitiful, so I fitted a Kenwood subwoofer system which has a seperate subwoofer specific amp driving two 6x9 subwoofers which are mounted in the rear luggage compartment side panels - the Kenwood subs are so powerful the adjustable amp is set to half power and the headunit tone control Bass usually set to minimum.

My E38 also has the top end OEM DSP system with, again, a 10 speaker + subs but this OEM system has four subwoofer drivers mounted into the rear shelf so I have no complaints and no desire to change anything.
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by kos »

The Bmw upgraded factory audio systems are limited and have scope for
improvements

The blog is by the company I used for my car, yes it's overkill and had a serious budget but Jesus is sounded amazing



http://www.studioincar.com/high-end-integration/
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by sharkfan »

kos wrote:The Bmw upgraded factory audio systems are limited and have scope for
improvements


The blog is by the company I used for my car, yes it's overkill and had a serious budget but Jesus is sounded amazing
http://www.studioincar.com/high-end-integration/
There will be someone out there who say the systems installed by the people you have quoted 'have scope for improvement' - but most people in the real world have to work to a budget, which in 99.9% of cases is the limiting factor.
2001 Alpina B10 V8 Touring (1 of 12 rhd)
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by olympia57 »

I genuinely don't mean to offend any of you guys, and I do admire your tenacity , but it looks like you are all trying to achieve the audio equivalent of absolute zero.
With the Cobraesque horse power that all those installed amps produce I cannot see how the performance can be immeasurably superior to a GOOD matched head / speaker system (sans twin turbo+NO amps) at, and this crucial , acceptable driving volumes .
A bit like limiting your 450hp big block to 1500 rpm .
Unless you're trying to emulate the late Lemmy and his mates in attaining volume 12 ...........

Now , I'll just huddle down here, tighten the chin strap on my kevler helmet and wait on the " incoming " ....... :wink:
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by Brucey »

if you like loud music and/or lots of bass then more power than just a head unit offers isn't a bad idea.

I am normally happy enough with just the head amp in most cases but on the odd occasion when I've been in the mood for loud music on a long drive I have come unstuck this way.

It is worth noting that there is a difference between AC and non-AC cars here; in an AC-equipped car the space for the head unit is tiny and one effect of this is that the supply of cooling air to the head unit can be compromised.

I discovered this when (after an hour of loud sounds one day in my AC equipped car) my (nominal 4x50W) head unit spat the dummy; it just stopped working entirely!

Fortunately it turned out that the head unit had (somewhere within it) a thermal cutout that actually protected the unit from real damage. Had it not had this feature there could perhaps have been a bonfire. The unit basically got into a strop, shut the amp off, and spat the disc out. The disc was rather hot; not so hot you would burn yourself on it, but pretty close. After a few minutes to cool down a bit more, and a reboot, normal service was resumed.

So yes, a head unit only system can be fine most of the time but under certain conditions you need more, and thus separate amps are a good idea if you are using anything more than decent 6x4s and you are going to run the system loud for any length of time.

BTW the proof of the pudding is always in the eating; I've heard some very posh systems I didn't think that much of and I've heard some simple systems that I really liked. I've seen some 'professionally installed' systems which sounded terrible and when I checked the speakers weren't even all set to the same phase.... :roll:
It is also the case that what you listen to makes a difference too; a system that is perfect for some uses may be horrible for others.

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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by sharkfan »

Everybodies ears are different, as are their expectations; as long as the thread throws up some ideas for those who are setting out for some changes then all is good.... just try not to slate anybodies choices, especially those who are on a budget and having to make and make do.

WRT Bruceys headunit comments, I similarly find a standard headunit completely satisfactory 99.9% of the time.... and the 0.1% of the time I'm not happy is invariably due to a passing (and probably unnecessary) power need :lol:
2001 Alpina B10 V8 Touring (1 of 12 rhd)
1997 Alpina B12 5.7 L (1 of 2 rhd)
1995 Alpina B10 4.6 Touring (1 of 1 rhd)
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by slofut »

Mark Shutt wrote:
kos wrote:for the front, i just has some builds made to house 6" components
its the only way you will ever get decent sound from the front

Image
that looks superb! I intend to do something similar but don't want to wreck my original door cards so will look for some spares ones, colour isn't an issue as I'll re-trim to suit rest of car.. just the pocket part is needed I think :-k got a pair of Phase Linear Aliante 8" drivers that are very low profile depth so might give these a try 8) then kick builds and tweeter builds!

Nice door enclosures Mark! Did you make them yourself?
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by Mark Shutt »

they are not my builds, was just quoting how nice they were! I do intend to make my own though, I hate trusting anyone to work on my own car, I begrudge having my car MOT tested by someone but there's not a lot I can do about that!!
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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by Ralph in Socal »

olympia57 wrote:I genuinely don't mean to offend any of you guys, and I do admire your tenacity , but it looks like you are all trying to achieve the audio equivalent of absolute zero.
With the Cobraesque horse power that all those installed amps produce I cannot see how the performance can be immeasurably superior to a GOOD matched head / speaker system (sans twin turbo+NO amps) at, and this crucial , acceptable driving volumes .
A bit like limiting your 450hp big block to 1500 rpm .
Unless you're trying to emulate the late Lemmy and his mates in attaining volume 12 ...........

Now , I'll just huddle down here, tighten the chin strap on my kevler helmet and wait on the " incoming " ....... :wink:
Likewise. I personally have no radio or music in my 2 favorite 5-speed cars. No Ms here but I would rather listen to a different kind of music anyway.


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Re: Speakers 4x6 fronts

Post by BenM635i »

I just installed a stereo in mine, decided to spend a little but hopefully enough to make it feasable to listen to music / LBC on occassion.

Bought a BMW CD43 system for £120 from fleabay, perfect condition and looks OEM. Then added this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bass-Face-DB4-2 ... B00W5L61ZU

as its tiny, sits above the glovebox hidden completely (put it next to the OBC relay box, LH drive car).. then plugged the amp into 2x Pioneer TS-G4644R in the front kick panels. The rear goes to 2x Pioneer 6x9 that someone had fitted to the kick panels under the rear seats - i wouldnt have done this as the holes in the metal make me winch but hey its already a done deed so might as well use them.

Sounds ok, not going to win awards but its loud enough and sounds clear and rear kicks a little bass.

Above all it looks OEM - highly recommend the BMW CD43 for the looks, blends in nicely.

Final touch, a nice new smooth electric aerial and jobs a good 'un.
'85 M635 #160
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