Zinnoberrot nightmare; three (or more) colours red...(long)

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Brucey
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Zinnoberrot nightmare; three (or more) colours red...(long)

Post by Brucey »

well.... at the recent Gaydon meet my car was probably the scruffiest one there (barring a recently started project E21 perhaps) out of the several thousand present... (At least it meant that I spared someone else their blushes I suppose...)

People said to me 'you might have polished it, Brucey....' . Over here in the UK we have a quaint Anglo-Saxon turn of phrase and one such is 'you can't polish a turd'. Trust me, I know, it seems like I've been trying.

Let me explain; when I bought my red E24 it was already tatty, clearly having been partially resprayed, and with areas of rust to deal with. Although there were parts that were not a very good match and never had been, when it had been recently cut back and polished, the paint looked OK, if you squinted a bit.

But left out in the weather, the ugly truth emerged, which was that there were at least three, possibly four kinds of Zinnoberrot paint on the car already. Each one would (without weekly waxing) then fade differently.

The roof appeared to have original paint on it, which fades to a salmon pink colour. The rear of the car (excepting the boot lid) has a very slightly different shade which fades to a slightly purpley colour. The boot lid fades to an orangey hue, as does the bonnet. The right front wing has an even more orange shade (even when it is cut back; it might even be henna red...) that weathers to an even more orangey colour still. The infill on the M-tech rear spoiler appears to be the same colour. The nose of the car and the front spoiler fades to purple. All this paint is two-pack stuff.

I've also sprayed some repaired parts with Holts cellulose paint; this looked OK when I put it on, but has faded to an even more vivid shade of purple than the other stuff, and when I cut it back it refuses to do so without leaving a dark line at the joint to other paint.

Anyway, I soon got bored with cutting back and waxing, plus the paint was getting visibly thin in places, so I realised I needed to do something about it.

So, after weighing the pros can cons for a while, about four years ago I cut the paint back hard, and gave most of the car a coat of acrylic rattle can clear-coat. I'd done this before on smaller things (like bicycles) and it had worked OK. I told myself that if it didn't work out, I could soon strip the acrylic off again using a suitable solvent and some elbow grease.

For about nine months it was the cleverest thing I'd ever done. Then, gradually, the chickens came home to roost. It turned out that not only was the paint oxidising, it was also being affected by the UV, and that the clear coat wasn't stopping all of it. To my horror all the same colour changes that had been happening before happened again, only this time underneath a layer of clear coat.

To give you an idea of how bad it looked, at this stage I didn't even see any benefit in trying to paint repair areas in anything other than red primer; this was no worse a match than the paint on some of the other parts of the car.

Pretty soon the car looked terrible, like it had been painted by someone colourblind. Then to my amazement, it started to look even worse; on some panels (but not all) the acrylic itself started to go white and powdery. At first a little wax polish would make it look OK for a while and then it got so bad not even that would work.

[Worse still, some of the parts that I had painted about seven years earlier started to peel; I know the reason why, too; Halfords zinc primer. Not labelled correctly as a pure acrylic (thank you Halfords, you idiots), it eventually reacted with the next-but-one paint layer.]

So I decided to try and sort the car out. I quickly realised that machine mopping was dangerous on anything other than a flat surface, and that solvents were a bit iffy too. Eventually I settled on T-cut, and hand cut the paint back on the wing tops and nose. I used MEK sparingly to soften the acrylic clear coat in places where it was particularly thick. It takes ages to do this; ages and ages and ages....

So when my car arrived at Gaydon I'd spent about three days doing this, used almost a full bottle of T-cut and all I'd done was part of the wings and the nose. Oh, and I'd polished the roof a bit, which had escaped the clear coating process to start with.

All rather depressing really. Obviously a complete respray is a solution, but it raises the ugly question 'with what paint, exactly?'. Clearly several professional paint shops (plus me) had royally screwed up in the past, and had used either the wrong paint altogether, or paint that was the right colour to start with, but that fades differently because the chemical pigments in it are different to OEM paint.

If I get the car sprayed, it is completely pointless if I can't then touch in areas later on, so it needs to be paint that I can buy and apply (in small areas anyway) myself if needs be.

I think that Professional paint shops in the UK may now only use water based paints and I'm not sure that they will have the same pigments as any of the paints that are on the car at present. In my mightmares I will cut through the new paint and into the old stuff, and it won't match.... there are a few areas where this has already happened...

SO.... finally getting to the point.... who knows about paint, and more specifically Zinnoberrot paint? Whose paint should I buy to most closely match the original? Is OEM paint available, and should I buy that? Are there any paints out there which don't fade so badly?

I found this thread;

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/ar ... 65109.html

which suggests that Rustoleum Regal Red is a good match. But it is not sold in the UK I think, plus it might be different yet again to any of the stuff I have at present....

All suggestions are welcome, other than the obvious one of 'fixing' my car permanently, using a lighted match... :roll:

cheers
Last edited by Brucey on Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Pod »

Well, Brucey, I hesitate to give you advice but...........in my opinion the only way to go is a complete strip back to bare metal and repaint.

One of my pals owns a body shop and he told me long ago that he is not allowed to spray cellulose and has to use water-based paints. These cost a fortune.

However, apparently it is quite acceptable (legally) for me to buy cellulose on ebay and paint it myself at home! So, that's the way forward for you if you can be bothered with all the prep. and messing around. At least it will be cheaper than having it done by a "professional" and you have the advantage of all the paint being the same age and thus fading at the same rate. Also, if you keep a few litres of the colour you can respray and touch up any necessary panels in the future!

just my 2c :wink:
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Post by slofut »

Brucey,
Are you planning on keeping the car? And are you wanting to keep the scruffy patina for some reason? It takes a lot of work to properly prepare a car for a good paint job, way too much (IMHO) to then just blow on an inferior paint. I did paint and body work for many years and still do on my own projects. If you're keeping the car or want it nice, I'd use a good polyurethane, single stage even. One of my favorites for the money is U-tech https://www.akzonobel.com/aac/brands_products/utech/
PPG is also a great product, but there are some lesser quality brands out there that are, well ...lesser quality. That's a hard lesson to learn. And I've painted many a nice polyurethane paint job in the back yard! Wet the ground well, early morning when the air is still out and no bugs or dew, and have at it!
Bill
Wear a good respirator!

Also, I certainly agree with Pod. A strip and repaint is the way to go here. I would use a 2k epoxy primer on bare metal first. Quality primer surfacer on top of that to block sand, then seal and paint. Talk to the auto paint suppliers about their systems. I think what you have now is a paint cluster#$%@!. I have cars with 27 yr old paint jobs that polish up like new. But Rustoleum paint on a car? [-X And that spray can junk has got to come off. #-o
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Brucey
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Post by Brucey »

thanks for the suggestions guys.

I dunno if I shall keep the car for ever (but never say never, eh?) and in fairness I don't have any real interest in owning a car that looks like a garage queen; 'well used but basically tidy' is about right for me.

I'm happy to do spray work outdoors etc but I reckon there are maybe three days a year when you could do it where I live, because it is kind of breezy. The cellulose paint is, if I can't get something different to the Holts stuff (which is available to me locally) a bit of a non-starter. I'd use it for other colours (have done and will do again), but not this one; my car lives outdoors and this paint changes colour too much in the weather.

I am also reluctant to strip the entire shell down to bare metal (apart from the small areas that have been redone most recently) for the simple reason that the paint is sound on 95% of the bodywork, just the wrong colour, and all that block sanding seems like weeks of effort for no gain.

I've seen quite a few 6ers that have been resprayed and most of them have not been flatted off correctly. Many 6er panels are kind of wrinkly in the metal and Karmann must have spent a lot of time prepping them. Most of the OE painted wings I have dealt with have had 1-2mm of filler primer on them in places; doors and rear quarters too. If you don't use the long block on them, the car can look like a kicked in dustbin; a shiny one, for sure, but still a kicked in dustbin (there were some examples of exactly this at Gaydon, too).

If I could respray panels as and when necessary with OEM paint, or OEM-esque paint, that might be a good route for me.

So does anyone know who made the original paint? Is it available? Has anyone used other brands of zinnoberrot that fade the same way as the OEM stuff?

cheers
Last edited by Brucey on Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by jacko »

Fancy a holiday in scenic Latvia?
http://www.rixcar.lv/projects/bmw-m6-1986/
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Post by wattsmonkey »

Brucey, whilst "you can't polish a turd", you could always splash out a couple of grand on polished BBS RSs.

i.e. you could "roll it in glitter"!
"Most of it necessary; all of it enjoyable." LJKS
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Post by dakal »

i thought i had the two worse stories, but yours wins. :shock:
Quendil

Post by Quendil »

I get my paints from here https://www.paints4u.com they are in the uk and will mix up your colour from the code.
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Post by bpoliakoff »

Years ago, there was an article on a white Corvair that was painted with water based acrylic enamel and a paint roller. It actually looked pretty good. A google search may turn it up. At that rate you can afford to paint yearly
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Post by Brucey »

Quendil wrote:I get my paints from here https://www.paints4u.com they are in the uk and will mix up your colour from the code.
they do 'cellulose' (actually Nitroacrylic) in BMW 138 but I suspect this is Holts stuff (same as I can buy locally) and I know that is no good for me, not in this colour. Worse than that they also offer only one shade, so a good match seems unlikely.

I'm almost desperate enough to buy a small quantity and see how it looks though.

In the meantime I did some further digging around and here;

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate ... 6bih%3D456

before descending (almost inevitably) into bickering it does suggest that

a) there is no RAL equivalent to Zinnoberrot BMW 138 and

b) there are some paint shops that can match some BMW red shades well and also use paint that doesn't fade differently.

I live in hope of finding one such.

cheers
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Post by kos »

Bruce, when I had my car repainted it was with a water based paint

There are several shades of Zinnobar to chose from depednig which paint manufacturer you go for

To even consider going for cellulose paint or 2k would be foolish. It's old and it's nasty compared to modern paint systems

Good paint from the likes of ICI, PPG, Glasurite (OEM BMW) or DuPont is the way forward, but what's more important would be the clear. I'm a big fan of standox lacquer. It's tough, it's durable and it lays nicely. A skilled painter can replicate the original factory finish and lay it with a slight shimmer and all it will need will be a slight nib down and polish with a rotary

If you want me to recommend a couple of good painters I'm more than happy to.
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Re: Zinnoberrot nightmare; three (or more) colours red...(lo

Post by Horsetan »

Brucey wrote:well.... at the recent Gaydon meet my car was probably the scruffiest one there (barring a recently started project E21 perhaps) out of the several thousand present... (At least it meant that I spared someone else their blushes I suppose...)....
Now ye know why I don't come to meets anymore.
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Brucey
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Post by Brucey »

more's the pity!

Hope you are keeping well

cheers
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Horsetan

Post by Horsetan »

Brucey wrote:more's the pity!

Hope you are keeping well
I have not been well recently.

I have put my oul '83 635CSi up for sale (see "For Sale" section).
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