UK M635CSi #039 fs

Pod · Post by **Pod** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:18 am

This was listed on ebay yesterday.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1985-BMW-M6-C ... 1497518076

I saw it only last week go under the hammer at Brightwells of Leominster. In fact I nearly bid on it, but didn't.

Sold for Â£12,200 + Â£1,464 = Â£13,664.

How the hell can this dealer be marking it up for Â£27,950? Just goes to show what we've been saying on this site for months - the trade are unrealistically pricing our cars. Sure, this one was pretty good, but no way is it worth that kind of money.

Just my 2c

sansouci · Post by **sansouci** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:02 am

They mark them up because they a find a buyer (AKA "pigeon") who hasn't been following the market as closely as you. But if you consider all the restoration costs to bring the average 6 to a high state of finish, it might not be so bizarre.
My $.02 also.

Pod · Post by **Pod** » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:49 pm

You may not be aware of the fact that there are now at least five of these cars up for sale in the UK at similar prices - and none have sold. Most have been on ebay within the past few weeks. Additionally, the UK is far smaller than the USA, so distance is really not a deterrent to seeing a car in person, as may be the case in your country.

One of our forum members had extreme difficulty in realising just Â£15k for his example- and it wasn't for lack of trying!

sskoda · Post by **sskoda** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:23 am

Pod wrote:
One of our forum members had extreme difficulty in realising just Â£15k for his example- and it wasn't for lack of trying!

If that's the case, then our two slightly crusty running M6s will be more viable dismantled for spares.
A proper resto is going to cost Â£10k each on them. Breaking them would yield a higher margin.

baders · Post by **baders** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:56 am

^^^ Facepalm.

olympia57 · Post by **olympia57** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:15 am

sskoda wrote:
Pod wrote:
One of our forum members had extreme difficulty in realising just Â£15k for his example- and it wasn't for lack of trying!
If that's the case, then our two slightly crusty running M6s will be more viable dismantled for spares.
A proper resto is going to cost Â£10k each on them. Breaking them would yield a higher margin.

I suppose the question has to be asked , was it not inevitable that they would anyway in hands of a specialist BMW breaker ?

Ralph in Socal · Post by **Ralph in Socal** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:34 pm

sskoda wrote:
Pod wrote:
One of our forum members had extreme difficulty in realising just Â£15k for his example- and it wasn't for lack of trying!
If that's the case, then our two slightly crusty running M6s will be more viable dismantled for spares.
A proper resto is going to cost Â£10k each on them. Breaking them would yield a higher margin.

If your goal in this venture is to maximize profit then that would be the best course of action. If you loved these cars with the passion that some others here have then you would save it and keep it for yourself without thought of profit. My $0.02.

This is not slamming you but just pointing the obvious.

Ralph

sharkfan · Post by **sharkfan** » Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:23 pm

sskoda wrote:
Pod wrote:
One of our forum members had extreme difficulty in realising just Â£15k for his example- and it wasn't for lack of trying!
If that's the case, then our two slightly crusty running M6s will be more viable dismantled for spares.
A proper resto is going to cost Â£10k each on them. Breaking them would yield a higher margin.

You're a breaker; what other hope did they ever have once you'd bought them.

sansouci · Post by **sansouci** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:05 am

+1 Ralph. We need more resto with passion. No offence Pod.

zinnocoupe · Post by **zinnocoupe** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:49 am

olympia57 wrote:
sskoda wrote:
Pod wrote:
One of our forum members had extreme difficulty in realising just Â£15k for his example- and it wasn't for lack of trying!
If that's the case, then our two slightly crusty running M6s will be more viable dismantled for spares.
A proper resto is going to cost Â£10k each on them. Breaking them would yield a higher margin.
I suppose the question has to be asked , was it not inevitable that they would anyway in hands of a specialist BMW breaker ?

Or you could look at it another way
If you were to spend 10K on your car it could be worth 27K, in other words maybe its now possible to spend all you want and still recover your expenses.
Of course I must agree with Ralph, we are all in this for the love of these beauties. In the US we have EAG driving up prices on e28 and e24s. I think this is just the way things go. Some people start charging high prices and some people pay those prices. Eventually everyone pays those prices. Pretty soon your reasonably priced classic car is worth 100,000. I assume this will happen to the e24 ( who knows when) Its not as if these cars are becoming more common.
Another aspect of this is that even the rustiest bucket becomes worth restoring because its rare and worth big $$ my $.02 ( worth less as I'm in Canada)

sansouci · Post by **sansouci** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:32 am

Ralph in Socal · Post by **Ralph in Socal** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:55 am

sansouci wrote:EAG?

Enthusiast Auto Group in Ohio (I think???).

zinnocoupe · Post by **zinnocoupe** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:33 pm

Ralph in Socal wrote:
sansouci wrote:EAG?
Enthusiast Auto Group in Ohio (I think???).

Yes sorry I'm used to seeing it referred to as EAG. I usually forget what the actual name is. They charge crazy prices for E28 M5s. Buy them from enthusiasts for 25K, sell them for 50K to ( I guess) rich collectors. Or whoever is willing to pay.

Or more!!! :
http://enthusiastauto.com/qsearch/?id=4 ... display=51

zinnocoupe · Post by **zinnocoupe** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:51 pm

Interestingly the M5 that EAG is asking $89,000 for makes no mention of the fact that its a Canadian delivered car. Speedometer in KMs, and black interior Its a small point but odd.

Pod · Post by **Pod** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:24 am

sansouci wrote:+1 Ralph. We need more resto with passion. No offence Pod.

None taken at all

I know we've all (probably) been in the position of owning a car which became uneconomic to repair/keep on the road.

What I find totally unacceptable is the practice of acquiring a vehicle which is, or can be made roadworthy; but taking the decision on profit considerations alone to break it into its constituent components. An individual who acts in this way is not a true classic car enthusiast

I think there's a saying here about (and I paraphrase it poorly)...." the value of the parts is greater than the whole".

sharkfan · Post by **sharkfan** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:08 am

'Profit condiderations' is exactly what splits the enthusiasts out from the Traders, Flippers and Breakers.

Most cars are in fact probably worth less than the sum of their parts; there are always cars that are beyond economic repair, some a little, some by a huge margin, but an enthusiast will always look beyond the 'sum' and ask themselves whether the car is rare enough, nice enough or just worth enough to them for them to invest in it above and beyond the immediate economic return of breaking it.

A breaker will very, very rarely do that as there is no emotional investment in the cars, no concern for the rarity or special nature of the car, no care for the brand or preservation of automotive history because to them it is just a business.

But occasionally a breaker will see the point of view of the enthusiast; a recent case in point is the last rhd 3.6 M5 saloon; a rare exterior colour, a very high specification, a rare and full leather interior. It fell into the hands of a breaker who resisted breaking it after being informed exactly what it was, and now looks like it will be restored and saved.

On the other hand I just learned about a rhd Ferrari 400 that failed its MoT on one item, a blowing exhaust. Because of the blowing exhaust it is now being broken up for spares........

sansouci · Post by **sansouci** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:08 am

The question of ownership economics is difficult as many cars can cost a ton in repairs to keep them in like new condition. There is always the repair/replace decision for the whole vehicle and also the reliability factor if it is your daily driver you need to get to work or shuttle the kids around. There is the diy vs the much higher expense of either an indy or dealer. Some cars are broken so that others may live because the parts suppliers find it uneconomic to sutain a reliable availability. Witness the yo-yo pricing as supplies run down. An example is the door weather seal or Bosch electronics. Sadly as cars are broken, the population needing repair parts diminishes unless the same parts are used on similar/newer vehicles.

Pod · Post by **Pod** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:39 am

Sharkfan, Sansouci - I totally agree and its great to hear of at least one enlightened breaker!

With respect, I feel that we should differentiate between model variations. Whilst there are relatively few "ordinary" E24s around these days, there are far less "M" cars extant. So surely, although a 635CSiA may be uneconomic to repair, the same cannot necessarily be said for an M635CSi with similar issues (Rust, Ron!!!).

I note that the dealer has not published any photographs yet, although he has revised the listing several times.

sharkfan · Post by **sharkfan** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:41 pm

Pod wrote:Sharkfan, Sansouci - I totally agree and its great to hear of at least one enlightened breaker!

With respect, I feel that we should differentiate between model variations. Whilst there are relatively few "ordinary" E24s around these days, there are far less "M" cars extant. So surely, although a 635CSiA may be uneconomic to repair, the same cannot necessarily be said for an M635CSi with similar issues (Rust, Ron!!!).

I note that the dealer has not published any photographs yet, although he has revised the listing several times.

Don't say that; I'm just about to throw some anti-rust time and money at a sad old 3 speed auto 635CSi

sskoda · Post by **sskoda** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:34 pm

olympia57 wrote:
I suppose the question has to be asked , was it not inevitable that they would anyway in hands of a specialist BMW breaker ?

And if it must be asked, then it must be answered. No. They were expressly bought for the purpose of restoring by a company that LOVES these cars as much, or more, than any enthusiast. We have rescued more cars from being broken, tracked or badly restored than most enthusiasts have owned cars in total.

Ralph in Socal wrote: If your goal in this venture is to maximize profit then that would be the best course of action. If you loved these cars with the passion that some others here have then you would save it and keep it for yourself without thought of profit. My $0.02.

This is not slamming you but just pointing the obvious.

Ralph

I already have over 20 cars in my personal collection, and an M635 is not one I seek. That should not however negate the possibility of me being able to restore one without the need to keep it thereafter.

sharkfan wrote:
You're a breaker; what other hope did they ever have once you'd bought them.

As above. Being rude is still rude.

I could also point out that all these comments quoting my post about there being no profit margin follows a post by the OP complaining about traders being unrealistic with the prices and how prices should be much lower.
Nobody, not one single one of you has caught the reason for my post, which is simply that if "enthusiasts" wail and bemoan high prices from dealers, then what incentive would any dealer have to rescue them rather than break them? Why should we in the trade, as a collective, make any effort to restore rare cars for a lesser profit (or none, if the OP was to get his way) rather than just break them up to maximise on our outlay?
I find it disgusting that "enthusiasts" would so act.

For the information of all, especially those who were the most ignorant - we've bought six E24s in the last year(ish).
The first one, bought to break, was restored and sold.
The second one, bought to break, was offered for sale but decried, mainly on here, and was subsequently broken.
The third one, bought to restore, is almost finished, despite needing far more than the "enthusiast" previous owner stated it needed.
The fourth one, M6 #1, bought to restore, is under wraps waiting its turn, and we have sourced parts to replace the bits that were missing from it after the previous "enthusiast" owner lost them.
The fifth one, M6 #2, bought to restore, fighting off two breakers who stated they were going to dismantle it, despite no specialist knowledge of E24s, paid more than they offered to secure it, and it is currently under wraps waiting its turn
And the sixth one, completely rotten, bought to break and parts have saved many other cars so far, including a local one that would have died were it not for us having the right ECU for it.

So, any questions? Or is someone else going to pop along with 20 grand and restore these two M6s for me? Or are you just going to sit there on your Palomino and think of a plethora of negative comments ready for the time I take to advertising the finished cars?

olympia57 · Post by **olympia57** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:28 pm

"If that's the case, then our two slightly crusty running M6s will be more viable dismantled for spares.
A proper resto is going to cost Â£10k each on them. Breaking them would yield a higher margin."

If irony was your goal then you failed , that's a statement and was taken as such.

My question was asked mainly based on your own penned history of ownership ,which shows an extraordinarily high attrition rate from the absence of basic maintenance , boredom and the need for profit.
http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/ ... ws-austins
Page three Dec.12 . Oooooooooo.
"I drive an Alfa, ride a Triumph, race an Austin, rally a Skoda, deliver in a Fiat, cruise in a Cadillac, and break BMWs

"

The lack of consistency in your threads also raises questions as to your Â£10 K per car costs to restore .
Initially it's all good to go with all parts available . Sill issues mentioned but " It will take a lot of man-hours, a lot of late nights, a lot of patience, parts and paint, but it's better than being broken, right?"
Yep , I think we'd agree with you on that one son .......
viewtopic.php?p=177597&highlight=#177597

Then even better as it is " not that major " after all . Hurrah !
viewtopic.php?p=177599&highlight=#177599
And then even better still as the 2nd car , " has bodywork needing done but not as bad as the red one." Oh , this just gets better and better !
viewtopic.php?p=177879&highlight=#177879
Oh but hold on , what's this ," A proper resto is going to cost Â£10k each on them. Breaking them would yield a higher margin." Oh bummer !
viewtopic.php?p=188207&highlight=#188207

As I say odd in that one of your employees is a painter , you paint and repair cars that you retail , and most of , if not all , the spares required are in stock.
http://willswheels.co.uk/

Now at this point I have to come clean and admit to having actually restored an E24 ( with my two hands doing ALL the work ) and I'll wager that your cars are no worse than mine was so a figure of Â£10 K ( even allowing for some labour rates as you are an enthusiast and by your own words work on your cars yourself ) seems rather high and is considerably more than it cost me and I didn't have access to trade prices or an acre of spares . Oh and before you say , I do know the real net cost of paint and materials as mine came from Newry

What a great pity that you , as an owner /purchaser of "six E24's in a year(ish) " only seem to pop in on us to try and sell singularily expensive items or create a storm.
With all of these unseen and undocumented restorations that you have done, or are in the process of doing, you could be a very welcome contributor to our helpful and very friendly site whose members, I'm sure in return , would be on the 'phone to you whenever they needed any part for their cars , just like the breakers in Australia whom I purchase from .
As a businessman myself the last thing I would do is alienate myself or abstain from a key market segment , think about it........
Anyway , this could go on and on and ......so best left for all to make up their own mind and I'll say no more on the subject as I don't have a handbag and I'm never awake at dawn .

cecotto479 · Post by **cecotto479** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:43 pm

Pod wrote:
None taken at all

What I find totally unacceptable is the practice of acquiring a vehicle which is, or can be made roadworthy; but taking the decision on profit considerations alone to break it into its constituent components. An individual who acts in this way is not a true classic car enthusiast

Offence taken.

Yes, I've broken a few, including M635s, but the parts have gone to save others.

Equally, I've sold cars whole where I could have made far more by breaking it - a certain white Turbo cones to mind, Paul! And a very eatly manual 635 with a lot of Alpina and Recaro bits sold on here that I'd have doubled my money on breaking it. But others, the recent '83 for example with lots of good saleable parts, but non running and very rusty was always going to be a breaker. It was restorable, but not at a profit, so it died.

That does not make me "not a true classic car enthusiast". In fact my classic car enthusiasm extends to more than a blinkered obsession with a single model of a single marque like some on here. I slways say that I'm an old car man first and a BMW man second.

Bayerische · Post by **Bayerische** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:07 pm

Well said Olympia.

I also took sskoda's post with a pinch of salt.

I think his actual motivation for the post was to let us know that he had two M635's for breaking.

I think he was expecting a rush of people looking for his M635 specific parts, M88 engines and front airdams etc....I don't think he anticipated the backlash as this is a site of enthusiasts that want these cars on the road and not broken.

Lets not be too hard on breakers though, breakers are an extremely valuable resource . There are a few I could have kissed in the past when they had very hard to source parts, so good luck to you sskoda, Cecetto (Boyd) and all other specialist breakers. I wish you every success. We need you guys.

I think the reason sskoda has rubbed people up the wrong way, Is his pretence that he is an E24 enthusiast. As Olympia has already alluded to, if he was a proper enthusiast, he would be posting a lot of his build threads and offering advice...he does not, he advertises parts. He's a breaker.

sskoda · Post by **sskoda** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:09 am

olympia57 wrote:"If that's the case, then our two slightly crusty running M6s will be more viable dismantled for spares.
A proper resto is going to cost Â£10k each on them. Breaking them would yield a higher margin."

If irony was your goal then you failed , that's a statement and was taken as such.

That's a shame. And a shame that you still insist on the rest of your post, quite considerably posed, extraordinarily so (have I peradventure accidentally offended you somehow, previously?) despite my detailed defence.

olympia57 wrote: My question was asked mainly based on your own penned history of ownership ,which shows an extraordinarily high attrition rate from the absence of basic maintenance , boredom and the need for profit.
http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/ ... ws-austins
Page three Dec.12 . Oooooooooo.
"I drive an Alfa, ride a Triumph, race an Austin, rally a Skoda, deliver in a Fiat, cruise in a Cadillac, and break BMWs "

You'll have noticed a distinct lack of M635s being broken, I'm sure. Perhaps a high attrition of cars I buy and sell, probably not noticing the sheer amount of cars we get through here. Many never make it as far as the thread I posted up for amusement and not as a provision for evidence in any witch-hunts. Your view of "attrition" will no doubt omit the significant number of cars I have kept for many years - I think its five, maybe six, cars that I have had over ten years. They're not BMWs - my username is more than clear about my first (automotive) love.
My first BMW was a 525i Touring E34. I restored it from a rotten heap, fit only for breaking, at the cost of MANY thousands, only to sell it three years later and see it robbed of its engine for an E30 a year after that. I still bought the shell back hoping to restore it AGAIN but it was far, far too far gone having been cut apart to get parts out of it.
But hey, I'm not a enthusiast like you, right?

olympia57 wrote: The lack of consistency in your threads also raises questions as to your Â£10 K per car costs to restore .
Initially it's all good to go with all parts available . Sill issues mentioned but " It will take a lot of man-hours, a lot of late nights, a lot of patience, parts and paint, but it's better than being broken, right?"
Yep , I think we'd agree with you on that one son .......

As I say odd in that one of your employees is a painter , you paint and repair cars that you retail , and most of , if not all , the spares required are in stock.
http://willswheels.co.uk/

I've omitted the links in the quote as they show no coherence.
Where you see a lack of consistency is beyond me. So "not that bad" and "needs a lot of work" are incompatible? Yet you say you have restored an E24. It is entirely feasible to need a lot of work yet not be as bad as it could potentially be. Replacing sill sections, battery trays etc is a serious undertaking, yet not so bad as had it needed a roof for example. You sir, are really digging in to find fault with me and in the absence of a given reason I can only assume - well, actually, I don't know why actually. It certainly doesn't seem justified. And you'll note that I used the word "sir", and didn't (subconsciously or otherwise) infer any subjugation or belittlement in my addressing of you.

You also find my figure odd, claiming somehow to have a better grasp of the figures than I, yet without possibly knowing the pay rate of my employees, nor having any idea about the price of the overheads involved. You assume the parts I use will be free somehow, because I have them in stock therefore they don't cost anything, right? Obviously I didn't have to pay for a donor car or repaint them or pay labour rates for the time to remove and prep them or store them whilst paying commercial rates... your statement smacks, really smacks, of absolute ignorance and purports a scathingly caustic opinion of anything I should say or do.

Now at

olympia57 wrote: this point I have to come clean and admit to having actually restored an E24 ( with my two hands doing ALL the work ) and I'll wager that your cars are no worse than mine was so a figure of Â£10 K ( even allowing for some labour rates as you are an enthusiast and by your own words work on your cars yourself ) seems rather high and is considerably more than it cost me and I didn't have access to trade prices or an acre of spares . Oh and before you say , I do know the real net cost of paint and materials as mine came from Newry

If you can do the restoration job to the standard I require, for less than Â£10k, including sourcing the parts and leave the car in concourse condition throughout, then contact me directly, and I shall be more than happy to engage your services.
I'm 100% serious, if you can do this, then I look forward to hearing from you. No caveat. No irony.

olympia57 wrote: What a great pity that you , as an owner /purchaser of "six E24's in a year(ish) " only seem to pop in on us to try and sell singularily expensive items or create a storm.
With all of these unseen and undocumented restorations that you have done, or are in the process of doing, you could be a very welcome contributor to our helpful and very friendly site whose members, I'm sure in return , would be on the 'phone to you whenever they needed any part for their cars , just like the breakers in Australia whom I purchase from .
As a businessman myself the last thing I would do is alienate myself or abstain from a key market segment , think about it........
Anyway , this could go on and on and ......so best left for all to make up their own mind and I'll say no more on the subject as I don't have a handbag and I'm never awake at dawn .

If you think I'm expensive, don't buy. I actually got told off recently for being too cheap for E24 parts but hey ho.
No storm intended, never my style. Just answering people with undisclosed grudges against me.
I don't document restorations for display on the internet, only for the purchaser of the vehicle, who can then do as they wish. Except for my personal cars, which is a different matter. I did try to start something with the M6s but nobody is interested.
Helpful - yet to find out.
Friendly - struggling to see that.
Businessman yourself - yet you persist in attempting to belittle and bemoan me and my business. You cant see as far as understanding it from the other side? You can't understand the overheads involved in a restoration?

Oh dear, it has gone on. And on. it's once again come to the fact that people don't know (or aren't willing to listen to) the truth when they hear it. Self, opinion and misperception are all strenuously fed while reality sits there quietly waiting for them to notice it.

Bayerische wrote:Well said Olympia.

I also took sskoda's post with a pinch of salt.

I think his actual motivation for the post was to let us know that he had two M635's for breaking.

I think he was expecting a rush of people looking for his M635 specific parts, M88 engines and front airdams etc....I don't think he anticipated the backlash as this is a site of enthusiasts that want these cars on the road and not broken.

Lets not be too hard on breakers though, breakers are an extremely valuable resource . There are a few I could have kissed in the past when they had very hard to source parts, so good luck to you sskoda, Cecetto (Boyd) and all other specialist breakers. I wish you every success. We need you guys.

I think the reason sskoda has rubbed people up the wrong way, Is his pretence that he is an E24 enthusiast. As Olympia has already alluded to, if he was a proper enthusiast, he would be posting a lot of his build threads and offering advice...he does not, he advertises parts. He's a breaker.

Really? Have you seen any parts for sale from either of my M6s? No. Why? Because they are NOT for breaking. I cannot make that any clearer.

And calling me a liar, really.
I did make a "build thread". On here. With two M6s. Nobody cared. So I didn't bother.
The people taking interest in my other cars though spur me on and send me messages of help and motivation.
Advice, no. I help enough people on the phone and in person every day to spend my free time (or time I should be working) giving unappreciated advice to people on forums that then insult me or mock me.
What I didn't expect was a torrent of people who think it's OK to ridicule and falsely accuse someone they have never met of things they insist are not true. I did expect a slightly more mature user base on this forum but I am left slightly shocked that the attitudes on here are more judgemental, more downright untruthful, more ignorant than even what I've seen on some boy racer facebook groups, and I'm sure you can imagine just how nasty they can be to each other.

Anyway, that's me out of this thread. Seems people just want to believe what they want to, no matter the protestations, and I can but leave the truth here for anyone that would choose to accept it. Maybe when you see the cars for sale next year, either of yous, you might be kind enough to offer a message of thanks that they were indeed restored and not broken. As "true enthusiasts" I know you'll be pleased to see that, even if you'll still not want to admit that you are wrong about me.

sharkfan · Post by **sharkfan** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:38 pm

Are you actually trying to get yourself banned from yet another forum?

We all need to look in the mirror sometimes and figure out why we go forums and more especially at the things we say there. I am witness to one of the cars you sold as 'rust-free' and the way you decided, rather publicly, to represent the car and yourself; it was similar to the representations you're still making here.

Perhaps to assuage some the criticisms you could post the links to your M6 build threads?