Thermostat install...contacting machined face inside housing

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hornhospital
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Thermostat install...contacting machined face inside housing

Post by hornhospital »

I'm replacing the thermostat in a 1984 633CSi. Pretty obvious why it would never come off the blue on the temp gauge!

Image

The owner of the car (friend of mine) bought a replacement Stant 'stat locally. It's a number 13558, which according to a search of auto parts stores is the correct 80* replacement. Problem is, the spring loaded disk contacts the tube-like face in the thermostat housing WELL before the thermostat body is seated in the recess on the housing face. I looked up the dimensions of the original 'stat and this one matches the length from body to disk. I can't possibly push in on the thermostat and hold it in the housing, then put the rubber ring and fiber gasket in place. I'm really wondering if that disk is supposed to be shoved hard against that passage, or is this the wrong part? :-k

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Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
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Post by winfred »

that looks like the t-stat for a s38, go ask for one for a 87 325i and see if something different comes up, any m20/30/50 unit will fit in the hole, i have even used one from a old early 80 mercedes 5 cylinder diesel when my supplier didn't have the brand i wanted, the o-ring that comes with it will be wrong on that one
3/81 633 m30b35 & getrag 260/6, motronic 1.3 -sold

86 635 with nearly all goodies from rotted away 85 m635 including the m88/3, tuning in progress on motronic 3.3.1
demet

Re: Thermostat install...contacting machined face inside hou

Post by demet »

hornhospital wrote:Problem is, the spring loaded disk contacts the tube-like face in the thermostat housing WELL before the thermostat body is seated in the recess on the housing face.
Can you post a pic of your thermostat housing?
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Post by hornhospital »

A couple of poor ones, but the second one shows the interior and the machined face of the bypass tube.

Image

Image
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
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Post by ///Moe »

You definitely have the wrong thermostat for your car, it's too long.
It should not touch inside the thermostat housing.

There should be approximately 25mm in between the red arrow on your photo.
Last edited by ///Moe on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
E24 635CSiA 85' (garage queen)
E24 628CSiA 83' (turbo/manual?)
E23 745i 82' (turbo project)
E23 728i 86' (745i project)
E23 728i 79' (part's car) [x]
E28 525i 81' (part's car) [x]
demet

Post by demet »

Thanks. I was wondering what the numbers are stamped on the top of the housing. The older style housing that I have has 4.1 stamped on it. The newer style housing has an A and 4.2 stamped on it. They they take different thermostats. Some people upgrade to the newer style housings because of the better design and because the newer thermostat doesn't fall apart. Like this one in my old housing,

Image

Here's the newer style thermostat.

Image

cheers.
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Post by hornhospital »

I'm going to go up to the shop and take a look at the casting before the rain hits here. It's supposed to rain all night and most of tomorrow, and the car is outside. Back in a few minutes.....

And I'm back. Unfortunately, this is the later housing.....A and 4.2 clearly on the casting.

Image
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
demet

Post by demet »

That solves the mystery. You want to get a M30 B35 thermostat then, part number 11 53 1 713 040.

cheers.
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Post by hornhospital »

That's the OEM number that cross-references to the Stant 13558 I have. :cry: The thermostats listed for the 535 and 325i all come back as that same incorrect Stant number.

I need the car running no later than Wednesday evening, even if I have to put it back together with no thermostat. That's not time enough to get one shipped from Pelican. I've got to come up with one locally. Thanks for all the help! At least I know it wasn't something wrong that I was doing.
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
demet

Post by demet »

Interesting. You're assuming the cross-reference is correct. I don't. Here's the correct thermostat.

Image
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Post by winfred »

normal parts stores are frequently wrong, try a different brand store. i've been selling bmw parts for over 15 years and am still amazed the dumb shit i see going on, it ain't just foreign cars, i can't get the oil filter for my 91 suburban from oreilly's by asking for a 1991 r2500 3/4 ton 4x4 v8 350 gas motor 4l80e automatic oil filter, or anything else with a TBI motor, shits completely wrong and you'd think they could get that right as chevy used that motor from 87-95 in just about everything with a v8, bmw doesn't stand a chance, just try to order a belt and have it fit \:D/

i see you have access to all of the usual players http://maps.google.com/maps?q=auto+part ... a&t=m&z=12 try napa, they are usually not retarded
Last edited by winfred on Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
3/81 633 m30b35 & getrag 260/6, motronic 1.3 -sold

86 635 with nearly all goodies from rotted away 85 m635 including the m88/3, tuning in progress on motronic 3.3.1
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Post by hornhospital »

demet wrote:Interesting. You're assuming the cross-reference is correct. I don't.

No, I specifically said "incorrect (part number)".
hornhospital wrote:That's the OEM number that cross-references to the Stant 13558 I have. :cry: The thermostats listed for the 535 and 325i all come back as that same incorrect Stant number.
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
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Post by hornhospital »

winfred wrote: i see you have access to all of the usual players http://maps.google.com/maps?q=auto+part ... a&t=m&z=12 try napa, they are usually not retarded
Yup. NAPA is the plan for tomorrow. At least their website doesn't instantly come up with that same wrong Stant number. :roll: and the local NAPA is owned by a friend of mine who knows cars enough to work with me on finding the right one. All the Advance/Autozone/Oreilly's/PartsPlus people are kids who know little about cars and don't want to know more.
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
Chris Wright

Post by Chris Wright »

hornhospital wrote:That's the OEM number that cross-references to the Stant 13558 I have. :cry: The thermostats listed for the 535 and 325i all come back as that same incorrect Stant number.

I need the car running no later than Wednesday evening, even if I have to put it back together with no thermostat. That's not time enough to get one shipped from Pelican. I've got to come up with one locally. Thanks for all the help! At least I know it wasn't something wrong that I was doing.
Check the Stant part numbers carefully:
The early type is .. 13558
The later type is ... 13588

You can go to the Stant web site and use their parts locator:
http://www.stant.com/Parts-Locator/

Click on the part number for detailed info. Below is the info for an '87 635 (later style housing - they changed some time in '86):

Product Type is OE Exact Thermostat - Includes the Seal:
Stant Part Number ...... 48038 (176?)
BMW ........................ 11 53 1 713 040
CARQUEST ................ 38038
Gates ....................... 33974
Gates Canada ............ 33974
NAPA ........................ 455208

Image
__________


Product Type is OE Type Thermostat - No Seal:
Stant Part Number .... 13588 (176?)
CARQUEST ................ 31238
Gates .......... ............ 33518
Gates Canada ........... 33518
NAPA ....................... 148
Stant (Carded) .......... 35588

Image
____________

You can also download their application guide. Below is an excerpt:
http://www.stant.com/Download-Center/Application-Guides

633CSI
6-Cyl. 196
1979-1978; OE Type Thermostat ............................ 13558 - 180? (OE Temp)
1979-1978; Thermostat Seal ................................. 25271
1979-1978; Thermostat Seal (1 Pack) ..................... 27271
6-Cyl. 3.2 L
1984-1980; OE Type Thermostat ............................ 13558 - 180? (OE Temp)
1984-1980; Thermostat Seal .................................. 25271
1984-1980; Thermostat Seal (1 Pack) ...................... 27271

635CSI
6-Cyl. 3.5 L
1989-1986; OE Exact Thermostat .................................. 48038 - 176? (OE Temp- Seal included)
1989-1986; OE Type Thermostat ................................... 13588 - 176? (OE Temp)
1989-1986; Thermostat Seal ........................................ 25271
1989-1986; Thermostat Seal (1 Pack) ............................ 27271
1985; OE Type Thermostat ........................................... 13558 - 180? (OE Temp)
1985; Thermostat Seal ................................................. 25271

A more detailed Cross Reference:
ACDelco Aftermarket - 12T29D
Atlas - 644-361
Atlas - 644-368
Bap-Geon - 28-12180
Bap-Geon - 28-19880
Bap-Geon - 28-19881
Bap-Geon - 28-19882
Beck Arnley - 143-0404
Beck Arnley - 143-0578
Beck Arnley - 143-0602
Beck Arnley - 143-0664
BMW - 11531253249
BMW - 11531265085
BMW - 11531307737
BMW - 11531365085
BMW - 11531513040
BMW - 11531721218
British Leyland - EBC3621
British Leyland - JLM322
Calorstat - VB35-V6833
Calorstat - VB35-V6998
Caltherm - VB35-V6833
Caltherm - VB35-V6998
Caltherm - VB35-V6999
CARQUEST - 31238
Cew Dist. Co. Ltd. - 4030 080
Cew Dist. Co. Ltd. - 4031 280
Cew Dist. Co. Ltd. - 4034 480
Chrysler - T0697157
Eaton Corp. - ET-31-180
Eaton Corp. - ET-35-180
Eaton Corp. - ET-37-180
Ford Motor Co. - E45Y 8575 A
Gates - 33518
Gates Canada - 33518
Ideal Aftermarket - 31238
Lazorlite - U33-9254
Lazorlite - U33-9273
Lazorlite - U33-9283
Lazorlite - U33-9353
Lazorlite - U33-9423
Mercedes-Benz - 0022037575
Mercedes-Benz - 0022038075
Mercedes-Benz - 22037575
Mercedes-Benz - 22038075
Mercedes-Benz - 6012000115
Mercedes-Benz - 6172002415
Motorcraft - RT-1040
Motorcraft - RT-365
NAPA - 148
Porsche - 92810612906
Renault - 7701349415
Robertshaw - 310-180
Robertshaw - 341-190
Robertshaw - 397-180
Robertshaw - 410-180
Robertshaw - 715-185
Standard Thomson - 148
Stant - 13588
Stant (Carded) - 35588
Stant (Small Card Retail) - 35588
Tridon Aftermarket - 673780
Triscan - 8620-2582
Vera - 56-00325
Vera - 56-00630
Vera - 56-00945
Vera - 56-00978
Volkswagen - 035121113
Volkswagen - 035121113B
Volkswagen - 069121113
Volkswagen - 077121113
Volkswagen - 35121113
Volvo - 2737266
Volvo - 273728
Wahler - 4049.80D
Wahler - 4049.83
Wahler - 4088.80
Wahler - 4147.80
Waltham - W148
World Parts - 143-0664
World Parts - W57-144
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Post by hornhospital »

Thank you, demet, winfred, ///Moe and Chris!

So I need a 13588 instead, to fit the later housing, correct? Weird. I wonder when the housing got changed, since this is a 10/83 production car?

The box the new 'stat came in:

Image

As beat up as this box is, no telling if it really is a 13558. There are no markings on the body itself to tell what it is.
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
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Post by hornhospital »

Ordered the Stant 13588 from NAPA. Be here in the AM. \:D/
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
Chris Wright

Post by Chris Wright »

hornhospital wrote:Ordered the Stant 13588 from NAPA. Be here in the AM. \:D/
Is that what their cross reference showed?
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Post by hornhospital »

Yes, for a post 86 M30.
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Post by GazM3 »

I had an issue with my thermostat like this. The car would heat up above 1/2 when cruising and cool down when I revved up the engine. Suspecting poor radiator flow removed radiator had core cleaned and it flowed fine and still major heat up at cruise. Removed thermostat and tested it but it wired fine but upon closer analysis the end closed off one of the openings going from the engine and the housing when opening would restrict hard against the end of the thermostat.

I remember someone saying you could have installed it wrong way around but it would not physically fit when installed in reverse. And yes by now the good detective realized that the wrong thermostat was installed.

I got the correct thermostat and it worked nice. I also noticed that the m88 radiator has massive gaps around the perimeter so lining the gap with closed cell foam made it run even cooler. I got brave and removed the viscous fan and it ran fine but in extended stationary period in hot 90deg weather the temp crept up to over 1/2 and surprise the thermo fan kicked in. It's nice to have the m88 run with no clutch fan so I'll out it back for now and in the new year source a slim line themo fan and trigger relay to help out temp in hot weather.

Well at least I saved on upgrading the radiator. May still do so on the new year with the switch to a thermo fan.
BMW’s
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94 E34 540i/6 SC E85
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Post by Chris Wright »

GazM3 wrote: .... I got brave and removed the viscous fan and it ran fine but in extended stationary period in hot 90deg weather the temp crept up to over 1/2 and surprise the thermo fan kicked in. It's nice to have the m88 run with no clutch fan so I'll out it back for now and in the new year source a slim line themo fan and trigger relay to help out temp in hot weather.
Why would you want to run with no clutch fan !?? :-k
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Post by GazM3 »

Don't worry Chris it's going back on. For now.

The m88 spins nicer without it and it's one less noise to contend with.
My car has been converted from left to right hand drive and there is quite a bit of soundproofing missing on the firewall. I've bought some more sound proofing to address this but for the moment I get all the good and bad noises from the engine bay.
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90 E34 M5 3.6
94 E34 540i/6 SC E85
97 E36 M3 euro SC U/C
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Post by hornhospital »

Correct thermostat installed (NAPA #148). Works great. Turns out my '85 635CSi takes the old style thermostat, so I'll buy it from my buddy to use on my car when the time comes.

Thermostat comparison. Old style on left, Stant 13558 that fits the 4.1 housing; new on right, NAPA #148 (Stant 13588 equivalent, direct replacement for a BMW 11 53 1 713 040), fits the new housing A 4.2

Image
Last edited by hornhospital on Wed May 25, 2016 3:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
debelinx

Post by debelinx »

If I may ask some really basic questions here. ('80 M90)

I had to change the thermostat housing coz of a stripped thread. When I looked up a new Tstat there were two different ones, different lengths as in the above post.

I assumed (please correct me) that the Tstat had to touch the internal opening w/i the housing to block it off and therefore when it opened cooling would flow. The smaller Tstat seemed to leave the a 2cm gap. The bigger one however would only seat to touch the internal opening by the o ring going in first and then the Tstat (which didn't seem right).

Needless to say, it's not opening with the obvious results.

Do I need the smaller one ? and how is the above thought process wrong ?

The housing is the modern generic changed one from the original.

Thanks in advance
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Post by tschultz »

On the two thermostats shown above, the sealing o ring sits on opposite sides of the thermostat.

The style changed around '86 or '87. This later style seals with the o ring on the back side of the thermostat (towards the rear of the engine). (BMW #11531254065).

My bet is your car has the early style, and the existing o ring should have been on the thermostat housing (front of the engine). I haven't taken mine of of my m90, but i know my early '85 had the early style.
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Post by debelinx »

I think that they only make the later housing now because as I had to replace it & the new one had slightly different internal pipe (longer) and two extra (sensor?) holes (5 instead of 3) for which I had to source two threaded plugs and seal with liquid metal.

I guess what I don't understand is whether when fitted, should the Tstat touch the internal opening which I assume it should seal when cold or be 1 or 2 cm clear ? The shorter Tstat was the latter but seemed the more logical fit in the housing.
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