1984 633CSi Rises again!

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songzunhuang
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Headlight debaucle solved!

Post by songzunhuang »

OK, I'll keep this short. I posted about my headlight problem in the electrical forum.

Bottom line, I stupidly replaced my high beam switchover relay (K3) with a normally open relay! ](*,)

In the switchover relay, there is an pin 87 and 87a.
The normally open has 2 pin 87s.

Since power flows through the high beam relay (K3) through 87a and 30 to the low beam (K4) relay pin 30, if I used a normally open relay, I would not get power to the low beam unless my high beam relay was on. Man this has been driving me crazy for a week. Stupid relays.

So important note, not all 5 pin relays are the same. :oops:

This was the wiring diagram that made me realize my stupidity. Ah we live and learn. At least I know my headlight switch is just fine.
1984 633csi headlight schematic.
1984 633csi headlight schematic.
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Song Huang
1984 633CSi
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Replacing Transmission mounts

Post by songzunhuang »

While I was under the car last time, I noticed my passenger side transmission mount was destroyed. I ordered two new ones from FCP Euro. They were inexpensive and even though it was Febi BiIstein brand, they were marked "Made in China". Oh well, I guess that's where everything is going these days.

So I started by taking off the nut at the top of the broken mount. I discovered that the rubber had been sheared into two. The mounts are cradled on an aluminum bracket bolted to the frame. After struggling with access to the bolts due to the exhaust being in the way, I discovered a much easier solution! if you support the tranny with a hydraulic jack, you can remove the 4 x 13mm nuts holding the bracket to the frame. Loosen the top nuts on the mounts and then you can slide the entire assemble out. First, here's what I was dealing with after I removed the assembly.

The original mounts with the passenger side destroyed.
Greasy and dirty.
Greasy and dirty.
Old mounts.png (1.3 MiB) Viewed 2981 times
New mounts on and after cleanup of oil and dirt.
New mounts on clean bracket.
New mounts on clean bracket.
New mounts.png (1.73 MiB) Viewed 2981 times
My offset 13mm wrench was a lifesaver! The mounts are cradled in the aluminum frame bracket. The passenger side nuts are recessed and hard to get to behind the exhaust.
Glad I had this wrench.
Glad I had this wrench.
Offset wrench saved me..png (1.03 MiB) Viewed 2981 times
I don't know why I have questionable luck with the weather sometimes when I work on the car. California is in record drought. Nonetheless, while I am under the car fixing the transmission mounts, it starts to downpour! I pulled the part needed and I did the assembly and part cleanup in my garage, The next break in the weather, I crawled under the car on the wet ground (see the towels and rain all over the car?) to complete the job.
Rare rain in California.
Rare rain in California.
Wet under car.png (1.44 MiB) Viewed 2981 times
Nonetheless, I got it done and was able to go for a drive to make sure all is well.
Another items struck off the To Do list!
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Song Huang
1984 633CSi
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by sansouci »

Buy a 10 pack of plastic ponchos on Amazon for about $12. I use them when I am under my cars doing degreasing or other messy jobs. Use it once or twice and them toss them.
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White smoke on startup

Post by songzunhuang »

So I have noticed that in the morning when I start my car, white smoke comes out of the car for a while until it warms up. Now, there are two reasons for this, but one I think I have addressed a long time ago. So here's my thinking on this. First, this is what I see when I start my car.
White smoke on startup.
White smoke on startup.
Smokey startup.png (649.43 KiB) Viewed 2868 times
First thought: Coolant getting in due to bad head gasket
Well, this though made my heart skip a beat since I had already dealt with a top end rebuild with a new head gasket. Surely it couldn't have gone bad in a few years. There's also been no sign of overheating of any kind. Finally, I religiously checked my coolant level for weeks. Luckily, there the coolant level wasn't going down. So I have eliminated this as the cause.

Second though: Burning Oil
So, how would oil get in? Piston rings, valve seals? Last time I had the engine compression tested, it did quite well. Then when I was changing my fuel injectors (another story), I noticed a lot of oil in the intake boot and throttle body.
Oil in throttle body.
Oil in throttle body.
Oily intatke.png (1.37 MiB) Viewed 2868 times
OK, how does so much oil get here? I think I may need to look into one of these. An oil catch.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by kronus »

Burning oil would lead to blueish smoke. White on startup (but not when warm) is water smoke, which can come from just condensation in the exhaust, as water vapor is a combustion byproduct.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

kronus wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:06 pm Burning oil would lead to blueish smoke. White on startup (but not when warm) is water smoke, which can come from just condensation in the exhaust, as water vapor is a combustion byproduct.
I really hope you are right and it's just water. It takes a while for the smoke to stop and it just seems excessive. There is a lot of condensation on my car in the mornings. I'll keep looking for clues.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by jps635 »

Installing a catch can is a good idea. Will stop all that oil gunking things up. You just have to remember to regularly drain and clean it out. Some photos of how I plumbed mine - I flipped the rubber inlet boot to avoid crossing the hoses.
Attachments
IMG_6387.JPG
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IMG_6385.JPG
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'85 635csi JPS (RA2-66)
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New Fuel Injectors

Post by songzunhuang »

When I got this car, I bought a rebuild kit and did my best to recondition the original injectors. Now, that I have put over 50,000 miles on the car, I figured it's time to upgrade. I've also been battling an occasional rough idle and I want to eliminate the injectors as a possibility. So by happenstance I was browsing around and saw a holiday sale from TLF Performance. I could get a complete set of rebuilt injectors for $160! OK, it's a good time to do it!

So first, here's the old and new injectors. The broken cap on #3 happened when I was pulling out the injector.
Comparing the old and the new.
Comparing the old and the new.
Injectors.png (2.35 MiB) Viewed 2851 times
The new injectors are flow tested and balanced. I learned that I needed 24lb injectors from the vendor. Originally I ordered a 19lb version, then realized I didn't know what the stock rating was. A quick email and I was informed that I would be ungraded for free. That was a nice gesture. Examining the old vs new, I saw a few key differences.
- The old injectors had a center pin. I'm guessing it helped to atomize the pressurized fuel as it shot past.
- The new injectors had 4 small holes and no pin.
- The old injectors had a plastic cap which protected the center pin.
- The new ones cap was just open.
- Of course the old injectors had surface rust and looked all of their 199K+ miles. The new ones had a nice silver finish.

OK, so installing the injectors were not too hard. Removing the manifold supports, rubber air intake and finally the 4 bolts securing the fuel rail was all it took. Then I had to remove the clips securing the electrical connector to the injectors and finally the metal clip securing the injectors to the rails. After that, one by one, I installed the new injectors. The gold paint on my fuel rails haven't held up so well after 5+ years. Oh well, it's a good thing they are not super visible when everything is assembled.
A few nice new silver injectors.
A few nice new silver injectors.
New Injectors Installed.png (1.49 MiB) Viewed 2851 times
After seating them all and securing, I just reversed the step of removal. Here's all the injectors in before I put the rubber air boot back on.
All injectors in.
All injectors in.
Injectors All in.png (1.57 MiB) Viewed 2851 times
For the first start, I turned the key on and waited about 30-45 seconds for the fuel pressure to build back up. I also checked for leaks and there were none. It took about 3 tries, but it fired up. I let it run for a while and it seemed like the idle settled a little higher than normal. The final thing to do was a test drive. I drove around town and also a bit on the freeway. Everything felt great. Did it fix my rough idle?

I am going too reserve final judgement until after I commute a few times this coming week, but so far things feel good. I'll report back about anything else I notice.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

jps635 wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:51 am Installing a catch can is a good idea. Will stop all that oil gunking things up. You just have to remember to regularly drain and clean it out. Some photos of how I plumbed mine - I flipped the rubber inlet boot to avoid crossing the hoses.
Thanks for the pictures. That looks like a clean setup. The catch I was considering would be from the valve cover vent to the rubber boot. They are both on the same side so I don't think I'd need to flip anything.

I've cleaned out my boot and throttle body well and I'm going to run my car a bit and check again in a week or so. If I see significant oil still, then it'll be time for the catch can.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by RossDinan6 »

Regarding the catch can, well more accurately the hoses, I'd consider a more oil resistant hose than the reinforced PVC in the pictures. That hose becomes brittle over time in the presence of oil or fuel. While not a huge issue in this application, I'd change to a hose more happy living with oil. I used blingy silicone, but there are less costly options more suited than PVC.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by oilcooler »

wow! what an informative and fun thread! i am hooked. especially because my 84 635 is having the intermittent dying issue. please keep us updated if the intermittent stalling/dying issue is/was resolved. it is an uneasy feeling knowing that my shark can stall at any moment..especially in traffic.

keep up the good work. always nice to read how other like their shark.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by sansouci »

Song,
Isn't there an injector for the cold start system? And did you change the fuel line to that injector which others say imperils the engine as it could leak?
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84 E24 633Csi Auto, Bronzit/PearlBeige 6997510
93 E32 740il M60 Auto, Alpenweis/Ultramarine
60 528i M30 5-speed Green/Beige (crushed)
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

sansouci wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:55 am Song,
Isn't there an injector for the cold start system? And did you change the fuel line to that injector which others say imperils the engine as it could leak?
Ah, the "little perisher". I did replace that fuel line quite a while back. Interesting that you brought that up. I noticed that I have to crank a lot more now before for my car will start. Before the injector swap, I used to be able to start my car by just turning the key with no other input. I didn't have to push on the gas pedal or anything. Now, it takes 2 tries to start and I have to feather the throttle a little.

Once it starts, it settles into a nice idle and runs smoothly. I've put over 170 miles on the car since the fuel injector swap and aside from the starting, it's good. I'm going to go check that cold start injector and the lines and wiring going to it. It seems like a logical culprit. Thanks.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

oilcooler wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 6:31 am wow! what an informative and fun thread! i am hooked. especially because my 84 635 is having the intermittent dying issue. please keep us updated if the intermittent stalling/dying issue is/was resolved. it is an uneasy feeling knowing that my shark can stall at any moment..especially in traffic.

keep up the good work. always nice to read how other like their shark.
Yea, I know that feeling well. The final straw was a stall as I was on the freeway! I coasted to the shoulder, sat a while, and then crank it a few times before it started up again. Made it home, but then decided to dig into the ECU.

I'm, convinced that the final solution for my dying problem had to do with cold solder connections on my ECU. I had changed just about everything without success until I bit the bullet and spent a lot of hours reflowing the solder joints. I've not had the engine die since. I had been fighting a dying / stalling engine for years. I did the solder joint reflow in March of this year (2022) when the car had 195,486 miles. It's now got 199,620 miles and it's not died in the 9 months that have passed. I've been commuting a few days a week during that time (well, except for the 3 months in the bodyshop - another story) and it's been well behaved.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by oilcooler »

good to hear that you might have solved your issue.

fortunately, i have an extra ECU that i will install, so i will keep you updated.

this intermittently dying/stalling issue can't be a relay, or fuel pump, right? maybe a loose wire or ground, or something like that?
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All is not well…

Post by songzunhuang »

Well, while trying to run errands the other day, the car died. After help from the local police to push the car out of traffic, I fiddled under the hood and it started, so I was able to get home. I later went to troubleshoot and when trying to move the car into a decent position, it died again. This time it wouldn’t restart.

I’m taking a break while I ponder what could be wrong… it feels like one of the crank position or speed sensor issues. I had to turn my attention to other things, but this is weighing heavy on my mind.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by kronus »

Oof. Hopefully something simple, and it sounds electrical. If you’d like to swap over ECUs or sensors, my ‘83 is parked up for a bit and doesn’t need them short term.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

kronus wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:12 pm Oof. Hopefully something simple, and it sounds electrical. If you’d like to swap over ECUs or sensors, my ‘83 is parked up for a bit and doesn’t need them short term.
I think I’ll take you up on this. I’m at my wits end. Been testing all kinds of things the past days and all checks out. Aren’t you in the Bay Area? I work in Redwood City. Let me know and maybe I can borrow your ECU as a sanity check. Thanks.
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Help - Fuel Delivery Issue!

Post by songzunhuang »

I've been fighting a no fuel issue. Mainly a recurring no-start and then when it does start, it runs terribly and then often dies. Then the no-start kicks in again. I spent several days checking all systems and have gotten down the this odd repeatable condition.

I can get the car to start and run for several seconds if I do this:
- Pull off fuel pump relay. Jumper 87 & 30 so the pump runs for 5-10 seconds.
- Crank the car and it starts, runs for several seconds, then dies.
I can repeat the above sequence over and over. It acts the same every time. Since it starts every time, I have eliminated a spark issue.

Things I have tried:
- After start, jump 87 & 30 attempting to keep the fuel pump going. The motor dies almost immediately.
- Jumper 87 & 30 and let pump run for 5-10 seconds. Put relay back in. Crank. Intermittent start, but doesn't continue to run.

Things I have done and checked:
- Fuel pump relay, swapped a few known good relays.
- Fuel pump relay socket wiring and connections. All checks out. 85 & 86 have 12v with ignition ON.
- Jumper 87 & 30 and fuel pump comes on just fine.
- Reference sensor and Crank sensor. Each measures about 950 ohms. Hot or cold.
- Measured at Motronic ECU connector per Bentley manual. All ignition on and ignition off measurements pass. So harness and wiring seem ok.
- Changed out all my fuel injectors, twice. Bought a new performance set (no improvement) and rebuilt my old set again.(No luck).

I am hoping this jogs someone's memory. I suspect something is shutting off the fuel pump. What else can I try? It is time for a Motronic ECU swap?
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by Ralph in Socal »

Try letting the car run off the jumper only. If it runs then the relay is the issue. Not specifically a bad relay but possibly the electrical connections for the relay. Getting continuity to ground does not mean it's good enough for the load created by the relay

If the issue persist with the jumper in place then I would swap out the ecu and then the afm. You're likely running an 008 ecu with 016 afm and I have spares of both. Remember the afm provides the signal to fire the fuel pump

I'm not exactly sure on this but I think the afm provides the signal to the ecu to ground the fuel pump relay

Ralph

Edit: I just remembered your car has that extra wiring at the afm. I would make sure those connections are all good. You also likely have that weird flat aluminum solid state relay so there's lots of connectors in that system also
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

Ralph in Socal wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 2:28 am Try letting the car run off the jumper only. If it runs then the relay is the issue. Not specifically a bad relay but possibly the electrical connections for the relay. Getting continuity to ground does not mean it's good enough for the load created by the relay

If the issue persist with the jumper in place then I would swap out the ecu and then the afm. You're likely running an 008 ecu with 016 afm and I have spares of both. Remember the afm provides the signal to fire the fuel pump

I'm not exactly sure on this but I think the afm provides the signal to the ecu to ground the fuel pump relay

Ralph

Edit: I just remembered your car has that extra wiring at the afm. I would make sure those connections are all good. You also likely have that weird flat aluminum solid state relay so there's lots of connectors in that system also
It wouldn’t run off the jumper only. I tried that. That extra wiring off the AFM was removed years ago after the independent BMW shop said I didn’t need it. It was removed in March of 2020. Car ran for years without it so I hope that’s not the issue.

I’ll need to figure out how to check the theory that the AFM provides the signal to ground the fuel pump relay. In the meantime I ordered a Programa ECU from an eBay seller after checking that I could return if it’s not the problem.

I still have that funky aluminum thing hanging off the fuse box. I really don’t know what that does.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by Ralph in Socal »

Check your main relay. Bypass it with the double wire bypass per Bruceys post

The jumper bypasses all ecu functions and provides power to the fuel pumps directly.

Weird that you can make the pump run when the car is not running but doesn't work otherwise. I know you recently replaced it but something is cutting off power to the FP relay when the car runs

Put a test light bulb on the +12v feed to the relay and try to determine what turns it off

Ralph
There is a very fine line between "Hobby" and Mental Illness.

85 635csi Zinno Auto
84 528i Euro
83 635 Euro Arktik
81 528i Kastanien 5-speed
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

Ralph in Socal wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:16 am Check your main relay. Bypass it with the double wire bypass per Bruceys post

The jumper bypasses all ecu functions and provides power to the fuel pumps directly.

Weird that you can make the pump run when the car is not running but doesn't work otherwise. I know you recently replaced it but something is cutting off power to the FP relay when the car runs

Put a test light bulb on the +12v feed to the relay and try to determine what turns it off

Ralph
Yesterday during a short break in the rain, I went out and tested it some more. It's a really odd behavior. At the fuel pump relay, I made sure that 85 and 86 get energized when the ignition is switched on. That checked out. I did the trick of manually running the pump (87 and 30 jumpered) and then started the car. As soon as it starts, 85 and 86 get shut down. The voltage drops to millivolts, basically nothing.

Something is shutting power to the fuel pump when it starts. Could this be a speed sensor function? Confused as static tests of the speed sensor check out ok. I don't have a scope to test it further, but I ordered a replacement sensor. Looking in my notes, I realized that when I swapped the speed sensor, it was a used one that you had sent me way back in March of 2016! The crank /reference sensor was replaced with a new one last year.

Anyhow, now I have an ECU and a speed sensor coming. I think I'll try the speed sensor first followed by the ECU if it doesn't work. I should get these part in the next day or two. I just need the rain to let up so I can actually get under the car.
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Swimming in my Passenger Footwell?

Post by songzunhuang »

So California is experiencing one atmospheric river after another. My shark is sitting there getting a free car wash. When the weather let up a bit, I noticed my windows were fogged, like there was water in the car. A quick investigation and I was not so shocked to see that the foam under my carpets on the passenger side was soaked. I mean really soaked.

I recall a thread about extending the drain from the sunroof A-pillar. This was when my car was getting repaired and the front fenders were off. It was suggested that this would be an ideal time to extend the drain that just dumps in the side sills. Still shaking my head at that inexplicable design. Anyway, I didn't get to do that modification during that repair and decided to do an experiment. I removed my speaker and pulled the hose out then extended it with a segment of 5/8" rubber hose.

I dried things off the best I could and then extended the tube into a container. I think I had Thai curry in that container from a ToGo order...but I digress.
Ready to catch water
Ready to catch water
Catch Water.png (848.39 KiB) Viewed 2439 times
Sure enough, the next night it rained cats and dogs. So this evening I was wonder how many drops were in the container. This is what I saw. Care for a swim?
OK, we have a problem.
OK, we have a problem.
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The container had not only overflowed, but the towel I put down was completely soaked. I dried it up and put a new towel down. I also replaced the small contained with a 2 gallon bucket. Once again, we are expecting another atmospheric river tonight. It'll be interesting to see what results.

In the end, when all this rain stops and I get my car running again, I've got another project to deal with. The fun never ends!
Last edited by songzunhuang on Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by Ralph in Socal »

Good to know you're doing OK during these storms. I don't think it's letting up anytime soon but good luck getting that 30 minute lull between downpours. Winds are whipping so stay clear of tall trees

I'm not sure about the effects of the reference sensors on fueling. They feed the ecu and that's the extent of my knowledge

The fuell pump relay is energized by the main relay so my reasoning for checking and jumpering that. It's been a while since I've read the No-start guide but jumpering the main relay should eliminate the ecu controls from starting the car

Ralph
There is a very fine line between "Hobby" and Mental Illness.

85 635csi Zinno Auto
84 528i Euro
83 635 Euro Arktik
81 528i Kastanien 5-speed
88 528e Bronzit (Granpa Car)
86 535i Auto (For Sale)
81 633 csi (retired)
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