rear Pitman links

Noct · Post by **Noct** » Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:55 am

Hey folks,

I was told by one of my guys a while back that my rear pitman links were worn and in need of replacement- quoted me $430.

I wondered how you would rate the degree of difficulty of the job from 1-10. I changed the fuel pump myself and that's the most significant thing I've fixed myself so far. Where would you put that on the scale of 1-10?

Thanks.

Brucey · Post by **Brucey** » Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:45 am

If you can use spanners I'd rate the job a '2' or a '3', tops. It is probably the single most straightforward job on 6er suspension.

I recently bought new (pattern) pitman arms and they cost about ten quid each. Took ten minutes to fit (the car was up on stands anyway). Two bolts on each arm.

You need to find a spanner that fits the top nut on the inboard bolt. Ideally a 22mm ring spanner (or 7/8" at a pinch) with a slim ring and a small offset.

You can remove the old arm with the car on axle stands (and the suspension extended), but it usually isn't easy to fit the second bolt into the new pitman arm unless the suspension is at normal ride height.

cheers

Hefeweizen · Post by **Hefeweizen** » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:35 pm

If you can change the fuel pump you can do the job!

Pod · Post by **Pod** » Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:05 pm

Easy peasy

tschultz · Post by **tschultz** » Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:40 pm

Less than 100 bucks and 30 minutes! Use that extra ~$350 and get something nice for yourself, or upgrade another part on the car!!

Easier than the fuel pump.

Now as I understand, the rear thrust arm bushings are a different job, and those may cost what he quoted you.

Brucey · Post by **Brucey** » Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:55 pm

tschultz wrote: .....Now as I understand, the rear thrust arm bushings are a different job, and those may cost what he quoted you....

too right!

I'd want every penny of $430 for that ruddy job.....

cheers

Noct · Post by **Noct** » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:41 am

Well, these guys are usually pretty on target w/problems and shop time... but it does say clearly "rear pitman links".

I know I am also in need of front control arm or as I think they call them, "support arm" bushings. These have become noisy and I posted about that before. I just drive the car pretty easy most of the time...

There's more of a high pitch noise coming from the rear now when I turn. I figured because I've let thse rear pitman links go for so long. I wonder about additional damage and if ya'll would expect a pitman link issue to result eventually in a fairly loud, fairly high pitch noise. Thanks again.

tschultz · Post by **tschultz** » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:28 pm

Give us a better description-- when does it happen?

For all we know, a loud whining noise could be a struggling main fuel pump

Noct · Post by **Noct** » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:40 pm

Well, it's not whiny for one thing. It almost sounds like something bouncing around in my trunk. So kinda like bah-bump! Doesn't happen if I take a turn real easy but on pretty much all turns.

Brucey · Post by **Brucey** » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:10 pm

I'd suggest you check the rear shock upper mountings. These can make all kinds of funny noises.

If you drive briskly round a corner with a pattery surface finish on the inside of the bend, when the inside wheel unloads a bad upper shock mount will often make a noise a bit like a hammer action drill.

Pitman arms can make noises too but they have to be absolutely shagged before they are audible; more normally the car wanders and tramlines when they are bad.

The other thing that is worth checking is the anti roll bar (sway bar) and its mountings. They can make noises too.

cheers

MooseDriver · Post by **MooseDriver** » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:13 pm

Had a set of the Lemforder replacements in my garage for a few weeks and finally got a chance to get around to this. Easy peasy is right! My old ones were shot (could wiggle them around freely) and it may be the placebo effect but she felt pretty tight on a spirited loop around the neighborhood.

80 bucks in parts and about 30 minutes and it's done!

Noct · Post by **Noct** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:57 am

MooseDriver wrote:Had a set of the Lemforder replacements in my garage for a few weeks and finally got a chance to get around to this. Easy peasy is right! My old ones were shot (could wiggle them around freely) and it may be the placebo effect but she felt pretty tight on a spirited loop around the neighborhood.

80 bucks in parts and about 30 minutes and it's done!

Cool. I wonder where that $430 quote comes from.... how is it that the "good shops", "socially responsible bay area" folk even pull this kinda shiiite from time to time. When they charged me $90 to change the 2 mirrors I thought to myself, it's inflated but not too bad (another shop had given the same quote). Then I had a mirror replaced by them down the line along with another bunch of sundry things. One was forgotten, specifically to install this trim strip I had asked them to put in. So he had to put it in while I waited and I helped him with it. We had to take off the mirror to do it, and we put it back on in about 10 minutes. So if you figure "man hours" with me holding it in place you could figure .33 shop hrs I guess, but they charged before $90 for 2 mirrors, or exactly 47 minutes labor... a 'lil out of hand wouldn't you say?

Noct · Post by **Noct** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:50 am

Brucey wrote:I'd suggest you check the rear shock upper mountings. These can make all kinds of funny noises....

The other thing that is worth checking is the anti roll bar (sway bar) and its mountings. They can make noises too.

cheers

I will check these things out if you could tell me what to look for... Of course I sound like a real greenhorn but I thought the sway bar was just in front. Is there one in the back as well?

I really need to get a proper jack. You see, I never looked at the sticky for proper lift points until recently. I was using the emergency jack and I also bought some jack stands when I changed the fuel pump. Now that thread refers to "axle stands"... are those a different type of stand or is it simply "Euro/US" semantics? Thanks.

hornhospital · Post by **hornhospital** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:29 am

Some old jack stands were flat across the top. I haven't seen one like that in years (except in my garage...and I don't use them now). They were fine if you put them on the flat areas appropriate for supporting the car, but if you put them on an axle (or anything rounded), you ran the risk of it allowing the car to move about enough to fall off the stand. I prefer ones with a cupped supporting face. The two "ears" are plenty large enough to support on the flat areas, and if placed under and axle the "cup" keeps the object (and car) from moving/sliding off the stand.

Noct · Post by **Noct** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:54 am

hornhospital wrote:Some old jack stands were flat across the top. I haven't seen one like that in years (except in my garage...and I don't use them now). They were fine if you put them on the flat areas appropriate for supporting the car, but if you put them on an axle (or anything rounded), you ran the risk of it allowing the car to move about enough to fall off the stand. I prefer ones with a cupped supporting face. The two "ears" are plenty large enough to support on the flat areas, and if placed under and axle the "cup" keeps the object (and car) from moving/sliding off the stand.

Cool, mine are the right kind. So then is there a particular jack I should go for at AutoZone?

Brucey · Post by **Brucey** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:31 am

if you have the car up on axle stands you can compress the suspension using a jack and see if there are obvious causes of funny noises. Be careful though; if the jack spits out you can have a very nasty accident.

The rear anti-roll (sway) bar sits on rubber bushings and is connected to the trailing arms by drop links with rubber inserts. Normally the rubber bits fail or bolts come loose.

Failed top mounts often make funny noises when the inside wheel is unloaded in a turn. But the only way to be sure of them is to remove them and inspect them. Again the rubber part is the part that usually fails.

At the rear the damper load is passed through the top mount rubber but the spring load is not; this is passed more directly into the bodywork.

cheers

hornhospital · Post by **hornhospital** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:34 pm

I looked at all the jacks Autozone offers, and they're either crazy expensive, or pretty much "use one time and throw away" junk. I know from experience. I've owned some of the latter.

I'm gonna suggest a couple of jacks, and hope no one goes ballistic because they're from Harbor Freight. Again, these are ones I actually own and use all the time.

This is my main jack:

http://www.harborfreight.com/2-ton-heav ... 68050.html

I bought that one because I have a couple of really low E36s, and I was tired of having to run up on 2x6s to get the jack under the frame. The lift pad requires only 2.625" clearance. That jack has a really long reach, which comes in very handy for reaching the subframes to jack up one whole end of the car at once. Best of all, it lifts almost 24". I have a pretty large...'girth', and any extra room under the car is welcome. I had some 20" high jack stands, but I bought jack stands that would go up to 24" to match. The extra 4" makes a huge difference. The rapid pump foot pedal saves a ton of time getting the lift pad from rest to the frame/crossmember. THIS JACK IS REALLY HEAVY (104#). I don't mind, but that may be a problem for some. I LOVE the valve control knob on the Tee handle. It is MUCH easier to control the jack descent than a "twist-the-jack-handle" valve like most of them.

I am an "Inside Track" club member at Harbor Freight, so I get extra discounts and coupons. After my discount and using a coupon, I got that jack for $109. They list it as being $179 "regular price", but I don't think I've ever seen it actually listed as being more than $159. Almost all the time it sells for $139.

This is another low profile jack my buddy bought:

http://www.harborfreight.com/3-ton-heav ... 61282.html

Very similar, slightly smaller, it works just as well, but only lifts to 19.75" (on-line says 20", but it's wrong), and it needs 2.75" of clearance. You wouldn't think that 1/8" would make much difference, but it does. The valve control is "twist the handle". It works well, but is hard to let something down gradually. This jack is heavy, but nothing like the 104# monster above. Very nice jack for about $50 less.

The 3 ton vs. 2 ton is interesting....both jacks use the same valve and piston set. The difference is the length/depth of reach. The longer reach on the 2 ton jack is due to the difference in leverage. Since it's physically impossible to jack up the entire car at once with one of these units, the capacity of 2 tons is more than adequate for any of our cars.

Harbor Freight used to be real "iffy" in quality. That has changed a lot. They have a lot of good quality tools and shop items....but they still carry some really flimsy stuff, too. Neither of the jacks I listed are flimsy or cheaply made. They come with a warranty, and for a few dollars more you can extend the warranty by up to two more years. I've had to return very few things, and they were always swapped for new with no questions asked.

I have two other jacks that came from Harbor Freight years ago. Both worked great for MANY years (20+). One still does, and I still use it, but they no longer carry it. The second jack worked fine until my dad (God rest his soul) took it apart to "improve" it (???), and lost the check-valve.

I kept it for spare parts. 6 years later I still haven't had to rob any from it.

Noct · Post by **Noct** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:44 pm

hornhospital wrote:
This is my main jack:

http://www.harborfreight.com/2-ton-heav ... 68050.html

Thanks, this looks like a nice one to go with. I will pick this up asap and get to the issues next year, sooner rather than later I hope.

Da_Hose · Post by **Da_Hose** » Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:03 pm

I have an aluminum quick lift and the low profile 2 ton listed above. The quick lift is nice but the extra height of the low profile is very useful. If I had to choose and only have one, I would pick the low profile. You will be happy with it, noct.

Jose

Noct · Post by **Noct** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:36 am

Brucey wrote:...but it usually isn't easy to fit the second bolt into the new pitman arm unless the suspension is at normal ride height.

cheers

If the car is on stands or on a lift, the suspension is not at normal ride height tho eh? So, how to do...?

Brucey · Post by **Brucey** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:36 am

I normally do it by jacking the suspension up whilst the car is on stands.

However the access isn't so bad that you can't fit the second bolt when the car is sat on its wheels, but this isn't always easy.

The problem with getting the second bolt in is not usually because the pitman arm is twisted, it is because the distance between the bolt centres is not right. Normally the suspension movement moves the trailing arm laterally, and the link is pulling on the bushings except at the normal ride height.

When you drop the car onto its wheels there is no guarantee that the bushing won't be under lateral load, and then the second bolthole doesn't line up. In this case rolling the car forwards or backwards can sort it out, because the toe setting will cause the trailing arms to move inwards or outwards.

cheers

Noct · Post by **Noct** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:29 pm

Sorry, is "trailing arm" and pitman link the same thing? I really need to go look at a diagram I know. Will do asap.

Da_Hose · Post by **Da_Hose** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:09 pm

I removed my pittman arms after installing my sphevical bushings, but I did replace them when I got the car.

I recall supporting the frame on a stand and using a jack to lift/lower the control arm (the actual suspension arm the wheel mounts to) as I lined things up for the bolts. I might even have unbolted the shock to make things easier to work with.

Jose

Noct · Post by **Noct** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:29 am

Well I picked up the jack at Harbor Freight today. God dang that thing is heavy! Didn't realize until I got home. It should serve me well though I realize. I've got lots to do in addition to the pitman links. There's the front bumper, tucked on one side from a little fender bender (doh!). And just in time for the holidays my fuel pump has crapped out. That's a guess but anyway I will likely be under the car.

So what's the deal with this store anyway? I had never heard of Harbor Freight. They had a 24pack of AA batteries for $3.50. If they work good that's pretty tight

Thanks for the tip.

hornhospital · Post by **hornhospital** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:17 pm

Harbor Freight started some 35+ years ago on the west coast. They used to be only mail order (remember that, before the Interwebz?), but now have stores all across the country. Their stuff varied/varies a lot in quality. Most of their tools are now good to very good, and they have a lifetime warranty, just like Craftsman and others. I have a ton of their hand tools...a 9 drawer roll-around tool cart that's taller than me is full of their stuff, and I need more room. I have probably 15 of their die grinders and 10 or so air-powered sanders. Very seldom have I ever had to take anything back.

A friend of mine said you lose 5 years of life every time you go into their stores and get a dose of the out-gassing from the rubber and plastics. If that was so, I would've been dead longer than I have been alive!