Thought I'd introduce myself...and my '82 633CSi

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DesktopDave

Thought I'd introduce myself...and my '82 633CSi

Post by DesktopDave »

I've been lurking here for a while, trying to learn something about this 633CSi I'd been considering. The previous owner accepted the trade and dropped the car off last night! So I'm down one motorcycle, but up one BMW. I'm no stranger to BMWs, having had an e34 525i/M and a fleet of e30s.

Production date is 11/81, # 7505451. She's a late e12-based car with the updated Motronic engine.

The Good:
She's a schwartz/cardinal '82 633CSi/A, only 136K miles. Rims were upgraded to 15" Epsilon three-piece meshies. Manual leather comfort seats, aftermarket CD head unit. New clutch, lower-mileage motor, spare head. I'm assuming that the /A refers to an MIA automatic. Happily, she's a 5-speed as it sits now.

Considering our climate in western PA she has surprisingly little rust.

The Bad:
She's not currently running, tires are shot, trim has issues, many little parts are missing, I have zero mechanical history, she's a bit tatty 'round the edges, I have no space in my garage and it's starting to get really cold here. I'll post some pics later... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :D
german performance inc

Post by german performance inc »

:D :D :D :D :D :D
welcome and dont forget the pics ! :wink:
congrats on the sixer and there is a wealth of info and help here to make sure your new aquisition stays happy and healthy,we are here if you need us !
rob
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Brucey
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Post by Brucey »

welcome aboard!

I just ran your VIN in BMWfans and it says that yours has always been a manual 'box. IIRC the VIN tags were all stamped up with the 'A' on whether the car was actually an 'A' for automatic or not, hence the confusion.

BTW if you search this site for 'welcome wagon' you will find Chris W's excellent compendium of useful information and links etc.

cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

Thanks for the welcome...I feel right at home already.
@rob: You asked for it...see below... This car needs a lot of work, I'll be sure to share my problems! :D
@Brucey: That explains a lot, I sorta thought that myself. It's good that BMW could save a few cents here and there.

Here's a few pics I took (whilst kicking tires).

Interior:
Image Image

Exterior:
Image Image Image

My 318i is tucked in back there too. I'm pretty familiar with BMWs, but the craftsmanship on the 6 is superb, quite the surprise. No wonder they were so expensive. NADA tells me MSRP was $36,995 in big 1982 dollars. Depreciation is a harsh master. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that maintenance isn't equally harsh.

I'm going out to pick up a few bits, I'm still poking around to see what exactly I have out there. I'm sure I'll be leaning on y'all for a lot of advice on my new project.
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

This afternoon's excursion certainly had its ups and downs.

Since I'm a "glass half-full" guy, I'll start with the good stuff. :D

The Good:
Stainless brake lines
Bilstein all 'round
One flawless 14" BBS basketweave
$4.68 in loose change
Hood is now bolted on
PO removed the security bolts from three wheels

The Bad:
One wheel security bolt remains #-o
Trunk & cabin leaks
Wiring is a mess (aftermarket theft device, splices inside the fuse box, loose wires hither & yon)
More rust, but it doesn't seem critical yet

And my favorite (definitely a WTF moment):
No transmission subframe?!? :-?
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Ralph in Socal
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Sweeet

Post by Ralph in Socal »

Welcome Dave. You'll have your hands full but it will be rewarding. Remember that the scrap yard is your friend. There you will find many needed parts at great prices. The e24 shares many parts with the e28 and some with the e23 Seven series. You've also found a great resource with the brain trust here.

Nice color combo and looks to be in pretty good shape. Don't forget to post in the wanted section as there are several members with lots of spares. You probably already know Realoem is good for parts breakdown so you can look for the parts you need easily. Brucey has already pointed in the right direction with Chris' welcome wagon of information.

Ralph
There is a very fine line between "Hobby" and Mental Illness.

85 635csi Zinno Auto
84 528i Euro
83 635 Euro Arktik
81 528i Kastanien 5-speed
88 528e Bronzit (Granpa Car)
86 535i Auto (For Sale)
81 633 csi (retired)
Chris Wright

Post by Chris Wright »

Here is a little light reading ..... there will be a test after .. :shock: #-o :mrgreen:
____

Dave, why is it not running? No spark or no fuel? Scroll to the bottom for a list of items to check for no spark.
____

For the leaks, start with cleaning out the sunroof drains, then check out the square drains at either end of the scuttle under the hood and then the sealer where the wiring harness goes through the firewall. if it is leaking into the back seat then it may be that the rear sunroof drain outlets have rusted or the hoses may have come off.

It is generally best to start a separate thread for each item you are trying to fix, one for Leaks, one for No Start, etc.. Give use more info and we can help pin point the causes.
___________

Hey guys, the "Welcome Wagon O' Information" is now in the "Tech Articles" Section, "Stickied" at the top as "E24 Shop Manual" so you can find it later and I try to keep that version updated: viewtopic.php?t=10410

The problem is that Dave's car is e12 based and the "Welcome Wagon O' Information" is geared to the e28 based cars, so here is a set of links geared to the e12 based cars:

Welcome !

Here is a boilerplate cut & paste of some standard information I've gathered over time, with the information tailored to the e12 based cars:

Even though all of the 6-Series cars are designated as the "e24" chassis, there was a change point in mid '82. Before then, the e24 shared many of it's components with the e12, 5-Series, and is referred to as "First Generation", "Series 1" or "e12 based". After '82, it shared with the e28, 5-Series ("Series 2" or "e28 based"). (06/82 is generally accepted as the change point, but be careful, not all parts changed over on that date).

There are no after market manuals for the 6-Series cars, so most people get the Bentley 5-Series '83-'88 manual if they have an e28 based Sixer, but Bentley doesn't make one for the e12. I'm told that Haynes had an e12 manual, but I guess they are out of print and getting hard to find.

New!
Here is a better Online Factory Workshop Manual from the Factory DVD
that has info for both the e12 and e28 based cars and the Euro Factory Specs and Torques as well as for Japan and the US. It is also primarily a browser/link based format with only the specs/torques in PDF files so it is faster then the primarily PDF graphic based Online Manual previously posted and the photo's seem much clearer also: BMW 628csi - M635csi (M6) - e12/e28 Workshop Manual

Here is the original PDF based Online Factory Workshop Manual (US spec only, but includes the early cars - click "630 ... 633CSi Repair Manual"):
http://www.bmwtechinfo.com/repair/main/

Here is a PDF download of the '80 Wiring Diagram (US spec):
viewtopic.php?t=6982

Here is the "First Fives" website FAQ, some good info on the e12 specific bits on your car:
http://www.firstfives.org/faq.html

The FirstFives FAQ, this is where you find info on the L-Jet injection, but you have Motronic:
http://www.firstfives.org/faq/ljet/ljetronic.html

A gold mine of articles and how-to's:
BigCoupeGroup Tech Library: http://www.normgrills.net/bcg/
(different then BigCoup.com, don't forget their Library too )

Site showing BMW wheels with their data, pictures and the cars they came on: It's in German, but with the pictures, it doesn't matter much.
http://felgenkatalog.auto-treff.com/

An online Vin Decoder:
http://www.bmw-z1.com/VIN/VINdecode-e.cgi

And last but not least, there are 3 online Parts Catalogs with exploded views and part numbers:

RealOEM.com, the original and I still find it the fastest to navigate if you are still on dialup:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/select.do?vi ... E24&arch=1

BMWFans, more graphic, so slower for dialup, but if you click on the part number in the right hand column, it will show you all of the other cars the part was used on. Very handy for hunting at the salvage yard:
http://bmwfans.info/original/E24/Cou/

Maximillian Importing, they will sell you the part, but the price isn't much better then the dealer:
http://www.bmwmobiletradition-online.com/bmw/


For parts, the lowest prices I've found on the net: check all 3 when looking for parts (they also make good references):

http://www.AutoHausAZ.com
http://www.Pelicanparts.com
http://www.BavAuto.com (Great Catalog, order it, it's free)

In the past, AutoHaus was almost always the cheapest (when comparing the same brand of parts), but both Pelican and BavAuto have gotten competitive so you have to now check all three. And always do a "Search by Part Number", as not all of the parts show up in the menu driven look-ups (get the part number form one of the online parts catalogs above).

For "Dealer Only" parts:
It is great when you can find a "Tame" dealer locally that will do competitive pricing, and more and more are, but if yours is not, then PelicanParts or BavAuto can order dealer parts but you have to do the "Search by Part Number" for them to show up . Sometimes the prices are good, sometimes not (I've found Pelican selling at above dealer retail on ordered parts! Always check at getbmwparts.com (or ebmwparts.com) to see what the MSRP is and for lower pricing).

There are several dealers that have online sites selling at about a 20% discount (plus shipping). Good place to find out what the dealer MSRP is, If you can get a local dealer to come close to these discount prices, you can save the shipping:

BMWMercedesparts.com seems to be a bit cheaper (20 to 30%), but check them all.

http://BMWMercedesparts.com/
http://ebmwparts.com/
http://www.getbmwparts.com/

Several have recommended Nat @ Atlantic Euro
Phone 336-970-0577 : email [email protected]

MWrench recommends Charlie at Gault BMW in Endicott NY. Claims he has a really steep discount for OEM parts. You can also contact him via email: [email protected]

_______________________________________

This procedure is for cars from '83 to '87, the '88/'89 have their main relay wired slightly different and different Ref. and Speed Sensors.

Break down of components needed to get spark to the engine:
Ignition Switch, OBC Relay, Main Relay, Coil, Reference Sensor, ECU

____________
  • The Engine Cranks Over
First check for spark:

Pull a plug wire and get an extra spark plug* and plug it in. Position the plug so that the metal shell is grounded and try to start the car. Watch the plug to see if you are getting a spark. If you are getting spark, skip to the next section to check for fuel.

If you are not getting spark at the plug, test again at the coil tower. if you get spark at the coil but not the spark plug, check the Distributor Cap and Rotor.

(* or use a spark tester, these can be had from an auto parts store. You may also need an extra plug wire to plug in and test at the coil tower.)

If no spark from either the Coil or Spark Plug:

Checking the ignition Switch and Coil:
  • Check, with the key on, for voltage at terminal 15 (+) on the coil. If no voltage, the ignition switch or wires to it may be bad. Wiggle the ignition switch to see if it is intermittent**.

    Check, with the key off, the resistance between Terminals 1 (-) and 15 (+), of the coil. It should be 0.50 Ohms. The resistance between terminal 15 (+) and the high tension center tower should be 6000 Ohms. Replace the coil if it has high or infinite readings (Open) or little or no resistance (Short).
Checking the OBC Relay:
  • Next, pull the Main relay and with the key on, check for voltage at pin 86 in the relay holder (the numbers are molded into the bottom of the relay).

    If there is no voltage at pin 86, check the OBC relay box under the driver's side kick panel, by jumping:
    • New Style OBC:
      the two green wires (pins 3 & 4) in connector C2.

      Old Style OBC:
      pins 14 (GN) and 15 (GN/RD) in the black connector C1 (See page 116/117 in the ETM for pin locations).
    If there is no voltage at pin 3 of C2 (New Style), or pin 14 of C1 (Old Style), the ignition switch may be bad (both terminal 15 on the coil and the OBC pins above are powered from pin 15 of the ignition switch).

    If voltage is present at pin 86: It is easiest to just swap in a new/good main relay and then skip to the check for the Speed and Reference Sensor below, otherwise check the main relay as in the next steps.
Checking the Main Relay:
  • Check the circuit diagram on the side of the Main Relay to see if it has two separate contacts for the output pins 87 and 87b or if it just has one contact going to two pin 87's. Clean the relay prongs and the sockets in the holder base and plug the Main relay back in.

    If there is just the one contact: With the key on and the Main relay plugged back in, check for voltage at the RD/WH wire in an fuel injector plug (or use a "noid" light on the injector plug).

    If there are two contacts: With the key on, check for voltage at BOTH terminals 87 and 87b of the Main relay. (You have to wrap a wire around each pin and plug the relay back in and test for voltage at each wire. Don't short between the pins!! One terminal can be good, suppling power to the fuel pump, and the other bad, not suppling power to the ECU, or vice versa.
    • Alternately, to check both relay contacts and the Start Input: With the key on, check for voltage at Pin 4 (Start Input) and Pin 35 in the ECU harness plug, and at the RD/WH wire in an fuel injector plug (or use a "noid" light on the injector plug).
    If there is no voltage in the tests above: replace the Main Relay. As stated, it might be easier to just replace the Main relay out of hand in the first place, instead of doing the testing. It is also a good idea to keep a spare Main relay in the trunk Tool Kit and just replace it (and the Fuel Pump Relay) out of hand if the car stops out on the road.
Checking the Speed and Reference Sensors:
  • Check the plugs to the sensors first, the plastic can get brittle with age and they can crack around the wire locking bail leaving them loose. Then check their resistance as below (won't hurt to check them both hot and cold if the car's hard starting is temperature sensitive):
<a><img src="http://bigcoupe.com/ims/pic.php?u=21GvpX2&i=349" border="0"></a>
_______________

The resistance test above is simpler, and gives you info on the condition of the crank sensors, but the AC voltage output test below is a bit more conclusive, as it also checks for the rare instance of a missing Ref. pin in the flywheel (Ref. Sensor):
  • 1. Pull rubber boots back off the two sensor plugs. Pull the main relay & fuel pump relay to disable the FI system.
    2. Set your voltmeter to AC volts and back probe the black and yellow wires while cranking.
    • Speed Sensor (Black Connector - reads flywheel Teeth) -- 4.0 AC volts max at crank.
      Ref. Sensor (Grey Connector - reads flywheel Ref. Pin) ------ 0.4 AC volts max at crank.
_______________

** (To start a car with a bad ignition switch: run a jumper wire direct from the battery (+) to term 15 (+) of the coil and briefly jump pins 11 and 14 in the diagnostic plug to engage the starter.)
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

Thanks for putting that all together...excellent info. I've seen a few of those pages but with it all together like that it's a great reference.

LOL, my speed & position sensor just crumbled...I'll be testing if the e30 units can swap over...

I've been thinking about a name too. Brigitte sounds nice.

BTW, one of the links in the middle doesn't work. It's definitely something I've been looking for too.
Here is a PDF download of the '80 Wiring Diagram (US spec):
viewtopic.php?t=6982
I get a "topic doesn't exist" error message?
Chris Wright

Post by Chris Wright »

DesktopDave wrote: LOL, my speed & position sensor just crumbled...I'll be testing if the e30 units can swap over...
Go to the BMWFans Parts Catalog ( http://bmwfans.info/original/E24/Cou/ ) and look up the part for your car under "Engine Electrical --> Pulse Generator". Then click on the part number and it will tell you all of the cars that this part was used on. It seems that the only e30 it is found on is the M3 with the S14 eng. AutoHausAz has them for $55 (BTW, we are talking about the two sensors in the back manifold brace right, not the one at the front crank pulley? The one in the front is not connected to the engine and can be ignored)
BTW, one of the links in the middle doesn't work. It's definitely something I've been looking for too.
Here is a PDF download of the '80 Wiring Diagram (US spec):
viewtopic.php?t=6982
I get a "topic doesn't exist" error message?

Hmmm ... It seems that the topic number got changed. It is listed in the "Tech Articles" section if you need to find it again:
viewtopic.php?t=8147

It really is not very good, the biggest problem is that it doesn't show the internal function of the switches and relays, the other is that is shows the L-Jet and you have the Motronic fuel injection. You might think about downloading the '83 ETM to get the Motronic and see how the switches and relays work:

ETM (Electrical Troubleshooting Manual, aka "Wiring Diagram"). Here is a Site with free downloads of ETM's (PDF files -13 to 20 MB) for various years ('82 to '01) and models of BMW's (3/5/6/7/8/Z):
http://wedophones.com/BMWManualsLead.htm
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

Chris Wright wrote: Go to the BMWFans Parts Catalog ( http://bmwfans.info/original/E24/Cou/ ) and look up the part for your car under "Engine Electrical --> Pulse Generator". Then click on the part number and it will tell you all of the cars that this part was used on. It seems that the only e30 it is found on is the M3 with the S14 eng. AutoHausAz has them for $55 (BTW, we are talking about the two sensors in the back manifold brace right, not the one at the front crank pulley? The one in the front is not connected to the engine and can be ignored)

Hmmm ... It seems that the topic number got changed. It is listed in the "Tech Articles" section if you need to find it again:
viewtopic.php?t=8147

It really is not very good, the biggest problem is that it doesn't show the internal function of the switches and relays, the other is that is shows the L-Jet and you have the Motronic fuel injection. You might think about downloading the '83 ETM to get the Motronic and see how the switches and relays work:

ETM (Electrical Troubleshooting Manual, aka "Wiring Diagram"). Here is a Site with free downloads of ETM's (PDF files -13 to 20 MB) for various years ('82 to '01) and models of BMW's (3/5/6/7/8/Z):
http://wedophones.com/BMWManualsLead.htm
Thanks for the updated link...you're right about that being a little low on detail. I've printed up the ETM for my service binder. It'll sit in the trunk along with the usual kit...multimeter, spare relays, jumper wires, bungees, fire extinguisher, etc.

Yep, it's the two sensor plugs on the rear rail. I didn't note a front trigger wheel, but if I can't make this one run perhaps I can update it. I'll bet M1.3 runs high impedance injectors and a different AFM to match the changes on similar vintage e30's.
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Brucey
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Post by Brucey »

IIRC there are other sensor part nos which are essentially the same part but with a longer lead on them; these are used on other motronic BMWs (and for all I know other makes of car too) and I think they are 'worth a go' at boneyard prices, anyway.

hth

cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

That's my bet, Brucey, you read my mind...I have several sets just sitting 'round doing nuthin' from the several e30's I've parted over the years...

Nobody wants M20 eta's over here, being common and cheap they're an ideal source of parts. FWIW I've only seen one sensor that's interchangeable. I have seen a e30 few pages detailing an M30 AFM swap...an M30 carcass getting M20 or M42 innards. I'd presume the reverse is likely. Betcha an M20 DME would work with a different EPROM as well.
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MrE
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Post by MrE »

G'day Dave,
Good stuff. All things considered, it looks like a pretty cool car. Image

I think the colour combo sits well too. Good luck with it.

-Ellis.
Image
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Brucey
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Post by Brucey »

there is a lot of swapping about that you can do if you have the urge. You might be interested in this

viewtopic.php?t=3061&highlight=635

which still isn't finished BTW.... where I did a bit of AFM jiggery-pokery... in more detail here;

viewtopic.php?t=3201&highlight=afm+refurb

cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

Brucey wrote:there is a lot of swapping about that you can do if you have the urge. You might be interested in this

viewtopic.php?t=3061&highlight=635

which still isn't finished BTW.... where I did a bit of AFM jiggery-pokery... in more detail here;

viewtopic.php?t=3201&highlight=afm+refurb

cheers
You're brave man, Brucey. I suspect I'll be sticking with the digital system, but I appreciate the links. That's quite the project you've been tackling; way beyond my hacking and fabrication skills.
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

The e30 position sensors are the same electrically. ~960 ohms between 1 & 2, very high between 1,3 and 2,3. I'm not sure that the sensor operating voltages are the same yet (as I don't have an o-scope likely I'll never know). But once the snow stops and the sun returns I'll be out there to test my little hunch. I'm not sure of length, of course. They appear to be shorter.

I found all my spare relays too... I'm on a roll today! That link to the relay info here is golden. These are all from e30s, so I'm still working on the x-ref.

The collection:
Nine Bosch 1 375 474 (orange 4-pin NO SPST) [general purpose]
One Bosch 2 204 401 (metal/violet strip 5-pin SPDT? w/shunt resistor) [high beam]
Two Hella 1 374 631 (one metal, one black plastic 4-pin NO SPST w/diode & shunt)
One $ (Sachs?) 1 711 266 (white plastic with ears, DPST? w/diode & shunt) [main relay]


Found a few with the car too, a new puzzle!
Loose:
One 2 014 112 (metal/violet strip 5-pin SPDT with diode) [high beam?]
One 2 014 406 (metal 4-pin NO SPST) [general purpose]
On the side of the fusebox:
One ?? (metal 4-pin NO SPST) toward the radiator [fuel pump?]
One Siemens 1 729 004 (white plastic with ears 5-pin NO DPST?) toward the firewall [main relay?]

Sorry for the novel, I'm kinda keeping this for my own reference. If anyone has some input, LMK.
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Brucey
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Post by Brucey »

you can identify the relay functions by looking at the wire colours usually. If still not clear, see what stops working when you unplug them!

Normally the main and fuel pump relays are hung on the outside of the fuse box, but there were variations in location and type with model. The E12-base cars are somewhat different than the later ones, even those E12 chassis with motronic.

cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

LOL...I'm hoping to see what starts when I plug them in...the car hasn't run yet.
Chris Wright

Post by Chris Wright »

DesktopDave wrote:The e30 position sensors are the same electrically. ~960 ohms between 1 & 2, very high between 1,3 and 2,3. I'm not sure that the sensor operating voltages are the same yet (as I don't have an o-scope likely I'll never know). But once the snow stops and the sun returns I'll be out there to test my little hunch. I'm not sure of length, of course. They appear to be shorter.
It will be interesting to see if these interchange, especially if they are cheaper!?! [-o< :mrgreen:

The resistance test is simpler, and gives you info on the condition of the crank sensors, but the AC voltage output test below is a bit more conclusive, as it also checks for the rare instance of a missing Ref. pin in the flywheel (Ref. Sensor):
  • 1. Pull rubber boots back off the two sensor plugs. Pull the main relay & fuel pump relay to disable the FI system.
    2. Set your voltmeter to AC volts and back probe the black and yellow wires while cranking.
    • Speed Sensor (Black Connector - reads flywheel Teeth) -- 4.0 AC volts max at crank.
      Ref. Sensor (Grey Connector - reads flywheel Ref. Pin) ------ 0.4 AC volts max at crank.
___________________________________________________
___________________________________________________


I found all my spare relays too... I'm on a roll today! That link to the relay info here is golden. These are all from e30s, so I'm still working on the x-ref.

The collection:
Nine Bosch 1 375 474 (orange 4-pin NO SPST) [general purpose]
One Bosch 2 204 401 (metal/violet strip 5-pin SPDT? w/shunt resistor) [high beam]
Two Hella 1 374 631 (one metal, one black plastic 4-pin NO SPST w/diode & shunt)
One $ (Sachs?) 1 711 266 (white plastic with ears, DPST? w/diode & shunt) [main relay]
When you check the above relays, make sure to check the physical positions of the pins. Many relays have the same pin numbers, but have the physical pin positions switched around and don't match up even though at first glance they seem the same.

Below is an expanded listing (from the same BigCoupe link above) with photos.
Found a few with the car too, a new puzzle!
Loose:
One 2 014 112 (metal/violet strip 5-pin SPDT with diode) [high beam?]
This is a Main relay, but is not desirable as it has no resistor/diode across the coil. The High beam is normally a Changeover relay (see below), so this would not work, but your car does not use a Changeover relay, but rather Std. 4 pin relays for both low and high beam (See the rather poor '80's Wiring diagram you downloaded. it shows them in the fuse box Where is it located, in the fuse box? It may have mistakenly been put in the High beam socket?
One 2 014 406 (metal 4-pin NO SPST) [general purpose]
Yes, this is a common relay used where most any 4 prong relay is called for in the 6er.
On the side of the fusebox:
One ?? (metal 4-pin NO SPST) toward the radiator [fuel pump?]
Most likely the fuel pump as youi say, what are the wire colors going to it, any GN/VI?
One Siemens 1 729 004 (white plastic with ears 5-pin NO DPST?) toward the firewall [main relay?]
Yes, this is a Main Relay (same number as the Stribel, see the list below). Should have a couple of thick Red wires going to it.
___________________________________________________
___________________________________________________



(Updated 01/01/10)

The main relay is a 5 prong relay with 2 terminal 87's. The OEM's have 2 separate internal contacts with a pin 87 and 87b. In these, one terminal could test good and power the fuel pump relay and the injectors, but the other could be bad and not power the ECU. Many of the replacements just have the one internal contact and two pin outs, both labeled 87. Do not confuse the Main relay with the 5 prong Change-over relay with pins 87 and 87a (See High-Beam-K3, and Blower Select relays below).

Main Relay, 5 prong, 3 Main Choices:

OEM BMW (12 63 1 708 646 - 25x25mm case, Double Diode) - $33- Special order from the Dealer, Pelican or BavAuto (OEM $24 from SteveHaygood.com) These units have potting compound to seal the bottom (First one to the left in the photo below).

Audi-VW /Stribel (61361729004* - Larger white case, with ears, difficult to fit under rubber boot, Double Diode) Potted bottom like BMW OEM - $14.87 (AutoHaus) (White middle one in the photo below). (There is a $18.25 look-a-like at BavAuto & Pelican*, but it does not have the potted, sealed bottom, you might as well buy the cheaper Bosch relay next that fits better)

Bosch replacement (0 332 014 135 - 25x25mm case, Resistor) - $11.33 (AutoHaus) This unit is unsealed, like the other relays inside the fuse box and is the 25x25mm metal can that fits under the rubber boot. It would be protected in an M6 glove box. (Last one to the right in the photo below). (Due to Bosch supercession, replacement units may now have black plastic housing, version 0 332 019 109, instead of this metal version.)
____

( There is also: )

Hella (12631708646 - Black case, No ears, Double Diode) Don't know if unit is sealed or not - $13.08 AutoHaus (not shown)

There is also the Bosch (0 332 014 112) which will work in a pinch, but it does not have a suppression resistor/diode across the coil, so it will wear the ignition key contacts faster - $11 at AutoHaus. (This info may be wrong, AutoHaus shows this relay with a diode on terminal 86)
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Fuel pump, O2 and other 4 prong Relays**:

( K1, K2, (K4- '83-'87), K5, K6, K7, K8, K9, and Start Relay. The OEM Green ones - 61 31 1 373 585/ended - 61 31 1 378 297, no longer seem to be available):

Bosch 0 332 014 406 - $9.95 (BavAuto) This is the 25x25mm metal can relay that looks like the the metal main relay on the right in the 2nd photo below. It fits under the rubber boot on the outside of the fuse box, and is the same size as the original green relays. I'd match it to the OEM green ones with a bit of paint and these would be my first choice, but .... (These may be superseded by a black plastic case version by now? Check with AutoHaus).

There is also the cheaper ($7 AutoHaus), and easier to find (even locally), Bosch 0 332 019 456 - (Same size and style with ears as the White one below, but Orange case) - it is a slightly larger case then the OEM Green ones, with several lugs sticking out that will just barley fit in the fuse box and work, but looks out of place with the other stock relays. This wouldn't be a problem under the dash in an M6.

Image
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High-Beam Headlamp (K3), and Blower Select relay in the Center Console:
5 prong change over relay (the output changes between pins 87 and 87a as relay operates) - Bosch 0 332 204 401 - Also a 25x25mm metal can, usually with a purple strip across the top. (Do not confuse it with the 5 prong Main Relay with pins 87 and 87b, See above).
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The photo below shows the same 3 Main relays, the OEM BMW, the Audi-VW /Stribel, and the Bosch 135, turned to show all of the sides:

<img src="http://bigcoupe.com/ims/pic.php?u=21GvpX2&i=341" border="1">

______________________________
For a more comprehensive listing of the relays, and why the relays need suppression resistor/diodes, the BCG Tech library: http://www.normgrills.net/bcg/Electrica ... ical-47857

** Cross References (unverified) for the Bosch 0 332 014 406 = Valvar /230006; - Hella /4 RA 003 205 00; - Stribel /SR 9875; - Wehrle Kirchzarten /21 201 12 V
* (This number at Pelican cross-references to (12 63 1 729 004), a BMW Mototronic 5 prong for the e34 5 Series and a list of 3 Series, but It is not potted, $18.25).
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

Thanks Chris, that's definitely making things clearer.
** Cross References (unverified) for the Bosch 0 332 014 406 = Valvar /230006; - Hella /4 RA 003 205 00; - Stribel /SR 9875; - Wehrle Kirchzarten /21 201 12 V
Based on your info, I'd guess the PO swapped the originals out & left them in the car. The spare Bosch 406 must have been the old FP relay; swapped for a Valvar 230006. Likewise, the old Bosch 112 main relay was replaced with the Siemens 004. I'll have two good spares if they test out.
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

Chris Wright wrote: It will be interesting to see if these interchange, especially if they are cheaper!?! [-o< :mrgreen:
My thoughts exactly. I've swapped BMW pre-cat O2 sensors in the past as well, even had some success with other Bosch partner brands like Ford. The only difference I've seen is the wire colors and the pigtail length. Later design O2 post-cat sensors will not work, of course.
Chris Wright wrote: When you check the above relays, make sure to check the physical positions of the pins. Many relays have the same pin numbers, but have the physical pin positions switched around and don't match up even though at first glance they seem the same.
That's not something I'd have checked...thanks for the tip. I have a strong suspicion that BMW engineers drink too much. Or their mind is on racing. Either way, they've come up with some fun solutions over the years.
Chris Wright wrote: Most likely the fuel pump as youi say, what are the wire colors going to it, any GN/VI?

Yes, this is a Main Relay (same number as the Stribel, see the list below). Should have a couple of thick Red wires going to it.
Yup, I think so. The car is pretty dirty though...and it's dark & snowy here.
Chris Wright

Post by Chris Wright »

The other thing you will have to watch out for is whether or not the info posted actually applies to your car** because you have a bit of a Red Headed Step Child there, an e12 based car with the Motronic engine instead of the L-Jet. So there will be people giving advice for an e28 based car which may not work for chassis and interior questions but may work for engine questions, but then .......

For instance, which fuse box do you have, the one with the plastic blade fuses, or one with the old style ceramic bullet fuses?


** I completely spaced it, but as it happens I believe most of the info works.
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

Chris Wright wrote:The other thing you will have to watch out for is whether or not the info posted actually applies to your car** because you have a bit of a Red Headed Step Child there, an e12 based car with the Motronic engine instead of the L-Jet. So there will be people giving advice for an e28 based car which may not work for chassis and interior questions but may work for engine questions, but then .......

For instance, which fuse box do you have, the one with the plastic blade fuses, or one with the old style ceramic bullet fuses?


** I completely spaced it, but as it happens I believe most of the info works.
Yep, I absolutely do have the red-headed step-child e12/Motronic. She has the tube fuses (but plastic tubes, not ceramic). The '80 733i ETM has the exact same layout with a few detail differences.

I was reading one of your other threads about a no-start on this exact car (ended up being the main relay). I'll be out there with brushes & contact cleaner when the weather gives me a chance. There are some interesting burn marks on the patchwork grounding harness that will require some attention before I get a battery hooked up.

Pretty typical for me, I seem to like automotive orphans...they deserve more of a chance IMHO.
DesktopDave

Post by DesktopDave »

Does anyone know if the aluminum subframe/crossmember will work with the manual transmission? Or is it only the steel one with the single mount?

I looked at the transmission (Getrag 265?), and it has two mounts already bolted on, just dangling in the air...the gearbox also has a single rear mounting ear, but it's not being used.

I've also been spending some quality time removing an old anti-theft system. It looks like it's previously been disabled but there are many scotch-locks, crimped caps, corroded terminals, etc.. Happily, the OEM wiring seems in decent shape with a few blemishes (main battery grounding strap is heavy duty speaker wire?!?). I haven't even bothered putting in a battery yet. It's nice to make a little progress, but with the short days, family obligations and holiday season it's not likely to get done soon.
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Brucey
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Post by Brucey »

the correct manual gearbox crossmember is a different aluminium piece with two mounts that are vertical rather than angled.

There should be small steel plate about 3" x 2" on the gearbox low down at the back. This in turn usually supports the 'exhaust arm' bracket that reaches sideways and supports the (twin or single) pipes ahead of the front silencer.

There are quite a few different versions of this arrangement

http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E28/S ... ion_parts/

shows some twinpipe 635 variants

and

http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E24/C ... converter/

shows the 633 (cat) arrangement

anyhow the arm bracket is a simple piece to make or modify if necessary

cheers
~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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