President Donald J Trump makes history...

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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by CSGuy »

Agreed, facts do matter. So let's make sure we get them right

1)correct tax at the pump is 18.3, diesel is 24.3 with another penny added to both for leakage
2)biden stopped all new oil leases on Feb. 22, 2021. Aug, 21st 2021 the oil companies sued. It's hard to claim they stubbed their toes when biden was the one that threw the spike strip in front of them.
3) In early November of 2021 biden restarted leases at a blanket rate of 18.5%. A 48% increase over the old 12.5% rate. Additionally, clean air act charges went from $7 per ton to more than $57 per ton of Co2 produced. Clean air charges added somewhere around $2500+ annually to the typical American driver's fuel bill, while the lease is another 18.5% added to the cost of fuel
4) additionally there's a proposal to add a methane reduction fee to the other fees oil companies already pay.
and we haven't even added the costs of monitoring and maintaining compliance with the regulations


So yeah, your right, taxpayers are getting something, it's 6 dollar gas

bottom line...It's foolish to say the government has no control over the price of gas. This is nothing more than biden keeping his campaign promise to "Kill the Oil and Gas Industry" And the war is helping him do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LssS0AbkQcE

BTW, I didn't say China/India buying Russian gas was wonderful of them, I said buying at a discount is smart. Unfortunately, bidum is more willing to spend top dollar with other foreign tyrants than he is to help domestic companies fill our energy needs at a reasonable cost.
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by Jlc »

CSGuy wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 3:41 pm Agreed, facts do matter. So let's make sure we get them right

1)correct tax at the pump is 18.3, diesel is 24.3 with another penny added to both for leakage
Which is still less than the producer's profit, which was the question you posed.
2)biden stopped all new oil leases on Feb. 22, 2021. Aug, 21st 2021 the oil companies sued. It's hard to claim they stubbed their toes when biden was the one that threw the spike strip in front of them.
You are correct . I was going on memory, it actually was several states that sued first, stopping the lease process as a result. Up until then, Biden had issued more leases in the 1st year in office then Trump: 3,557 permits for oil and gas drilling on public lands in its first year, vs Trump's 2,658.
3) In early November of 2021 biden restarted leases at a blanket rate of 18.5%. A 48% increase over the old 12.5% rate.
A rate which has been in place a long time and it's about time taxpayers got more for our oil. Again, IIRC, states often charge more than the federal rate. You can thank the Governor of Texas for adding more to the price of gas than the US government. While the rate is 12.5%, the actual rate is less due variuos deductions allowed when figuring out what is owed. Even so, that was a proposed new rate, last I saw. At any rate, since oil prices are set by global supply and demand, a higher lease rate means less profit for the drillers and more return for the taxpayers, since they can't pass it on. Even if they could, only about 10% of US production is from federal owned land. Considering private lease rates are higher the government oil is underpriced in a free market.
Additionally, clean air act charges went from $7 per ton to more than $57 per ton of Co2 produced. Clean air charges added somewhere around $2500+ annually to the typical American driver's fuel bill, while the lease is another 18.5% added to the cost of fuel
The $57 (I've seen $51) is a proposal to change how climate change costs are measured by taking worldwide, not US only, into account. At any rate, it is a proposal, put on hold by a judge, and would affect future leases if it goes through.
4) additionally there's a proposal to add a methane reduction fee to the other fees oil companies already pay.
and we haven't even added the costs of monitoring and maintaining compliance with the regulations


So yeah, your right, taxpayers are getting something, it's 6 dollar gas

bottom line...It's foolish to say the government has no control over the price of gas. This is nothing more than biden keeping his campaign promise to "Kill the Oil and Gas Industry" And the war is helping him do it.
Never said it didn't just that the notion the federal government's impact on pricing is far less than that of the price of crude. It's not like tehy could cut prices in alf.

If you look at gas prices, in the last 4 years of the Obama administration, prices dropped from an all time high to an about 8 year low. Trump takes office and prices rise until the pandemic killed demand. So Obama good, Trump bad.
BTW, I didn't say China/India buying Russian gas was wonderful of them, I said buying at a discount is smart. Unfortunately, bidum is more willing to spend top dollar with other foreign tyrants than he is to help domestic companies fill our energy needs at a reasonable cost.
Fair enough. Since buying from a sanctioned country is generally the way to get a discount because they can't sell in the market, it seemed to be your point.

The problem gets back to price of oil. At lower prices, some US oil fields are unprofitable. So production stops. If prices rise, hey can go back into production but at the risk of prices falling again as supply increases. Foreign producers can drive down teh price to stop production of higher cost wells, trading more volume for lower prices.

The only real way to lower prices is to reduce demand; since producers, with OPEC, don't want to get into a price war by pumping a lot more to impact the supply side.

If the US cost were low enough, we could produce more but the price per barrel would still be at the international price. If the US selling price was less oil companies would simply sell into overseas markets like they do today. Thye'd be foolish not to, as any free marketeer would point out.

As side note, now that prices are dropping the "Joe Biden did that" signs are sending a new message. It will be interesting to see if they stay up once prices settle back down.
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by CSGuy »

What I get from what you wrote is Regulation Good, Oil Companies bad, that the only cost forced on consumers by our government is tax at the pump and that we should happily pay the far greater but hidden costs imposed by carbon tax, increased transportation costs and any number other fees the government sees fit to impose.

The way I see it some costs from increased demand and the Ukraine/Russian war are understandable but not to the extent they've increased under bidens asleep at the wheel leadership. biden's spent over 50 years in government with nothing more to show than his willingness to treat American Taxpayers like his own ATM.

As for what additional costs our government is trying to bury in regulation you need to look beyond the lies spread by peppermint patty. this is one place for you to start digging beyond the happy happy lies of the biden admin

https://www.api.org/news-policy-and-iss ... no-benefit
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by Jlc »

CSGuy wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 6:46 pm What I get from what you wrote is Regulation Good, Oil Companies bad, that the only cost forced on consumers by our government is tax at the pump and that we should happily pay the far greater but hidden costs imposed by carbon tax, increased transportation costs and any number other fees the government sees fit to impose.
You do realize that companies also benefit from regulation by limiting competition and protecting markets?

It's not good or bad, but complex, issue. Sure, the taxpayer should get at least as much from the lease of public lands as private lands with similar setups get. I mean, Texas charges 2x or so for their leases than the Feds do. Wh should the US tax payer get shortchanged?

As for transportation, some of the higher costs is the result of industry choices to rail because of where they want to market the oil rather than use pipelines and their cost structure. Here's a good insight from that bastion of the free market, Chicago Booth:

https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/why ... spite-cost

It also presents an interesting perspective on how to look at the tradeoffs in regulation to make pipelines more attractive nd reduce environmetal impact from rail.
The way I see it some costs from increased demand and the Ukraine/Russian war are understandable but not to the extent they've increased
If you look at the price of crude's impact on gas prices, it's about 50% of the pump. Crude has gone up from $57 to $96, or ~68%. Doing the math, the cost at the pump from crude, with gas at $2.42 that meant $1.21 was due to crude, the rest to transport, etc. At 96, the cost of crude is $2.03, so ceteris paribus, gas would be $3.24 in Feb 22 not far off the $3.61. Of course, things like higher transport costs due to rising crude oil prices will add to the cost increase, as of course taxes that are based on a % of the price.

Given that, I'd say a reasonable conclusion is much of the rise is due to uncertainty from the war as well as higher demand as the economy finally is recovering from the Trump era collapse due to Covid. Interestingly, gas prices rose during Trumps time in office until Covid hit and the Feb 202 price is only about 23% higher than the highs during the Trump administration.
under bidens asleep at the wheel leadership. biden's spent over 50 years in government with nothing more to show than his willingness to treat American Taxpayers like his own ATM.

As for what additional costs our government is trying to bury in regulation you need to look beyond the lies spread by peppermint patty. this is one place for you to start digging beyond the happy happy lies of the biden admin

https://www.api.org/news-policy-and-iss ... no-benefit
I get it, you don't like Biden. Fair enough. I'm familiar with the API, and they're not exactly unbiased either when shilling for their industry. Right now, as the Exxon CEO put it, the US taxpayer is the oil company's ATM. Which make sense because they are in the business of making the stockholders money, not saving money at the pump.
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by CSGuy »

lol Yup, that's right, crude prices are a big part of the cost of gas and for domestic producers, about 40% of that cost is regulation and tax.

Producers have risks and costs to get their products to market while the government has none. Reduced governmental costs are the fastest and least impactful way to reduce costs for American consumers. The biden admin has done just the opposite and increased costs for producers while expressing open hostility to the industry in general.

For the American consumer that's given us over 50% prices at the pump, allowed Russia to go to war, put global food supplies in question while bringing talks of rescission to America for the first time in years. In addition to continuing to run the Feds printing presses and raising interest at the same time.

So yeah, when it comes to biden, I have to go with someone that knows him better than us and listen to Obama when he says
“Don’t underestimate Joe’s ability to fuck things up.”
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by Jlc »

CSGuy wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:52 pm lol Yup, that's right, crude prices are a big part of the cost of gas and for domestic producers, about 40% of that cost is regulation and tax.
I get your blind hatred of Biden is blinding you to facts, but here is the breakdown per the EIA for a gallon of gas in 2021:

Refining costs and profits - 14.4%
Distribution and marketing: 15.6%
Federal and State Taxes: 16.4%
Crude Oil: 53.6%

Sure, we can reduce the regulatory burden and its costs. Start by getting rid of that ethanol mandate which forces blending gas with ethanol. Get rid of biofuel subsidies and credits. That is a huge cost driver. Getting rid of the Jones Act, which forces companies to use US built, flagged and crewed ships instead of cheaper foreign flagged ones, would cut transportation costs. Rescinding Trump's ban on drilling in the Gulf and off the southern East Coast would help as well. Tell the states they can't charge more than the Federal government for oil leases.

Even so, regulation isn't 40% of the cost. Do you really believe 75% of the costs of refining, distribution and marketing, even including profits, is due to regulation?

Of course, regulations protect the big companies because they can more easily afford the costs, preventing smaller operations from expanding and drilling more, those limiting supply. Regulatory capture is a real thing.

Even that bastion of liberalism, the Heritage Foundation, stated:

While it is inaccurate to blame the current administration for the recent rise in gas prices, actions made today will have long-lasting impacts.

https://www.heritage.org/energy-economi ... r-the-hood

Regulations need to be reviewed and carefully considered; but are not the root of high prices. If domestic producers decided to pump more they could lower prices, but prefer to keep profits high, as they have admitted to doing. Changing that would be the biggest impact on oil prices. Then agin, doing that would require government intervention.
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by CSGuy »

biden's biggest interest is biden and if his 50 years in government haven't proven that to you, I can't help.

Unfortunately, the cost of oil has nothing to do with my beliefs on joe biden....You still overlook the impact of regulation/tax on the price of crude and yes 40% on crude.

As for pumping more oil, why should oil companies give up resources while biden has done nothing but cloud their future?

I never said regulation was the biggest cost in gas, I said reducing them was the fastest and most risk-free way to reduce the cost of oil.

As you allude, the regulation goes deep and it's pretty simple, the government has the tools to help if they chose to help.
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by Jlc »

CSGuy wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:22 pm biden's biggest interest is biden and if his 50 years in government haven't proven that to you, I can't help.
And teh same is true of MCConnel, et. al.
Unfortunately, the cost of oil has nothing to do with my beliefs on joe biden....You still overlook the impact of regulation/tax on the price of crude and yes 40% on crude.
You keep saying regulation is 40% on crude despite my showing you that simply isn't true.
As for pumping more oil, why should oil companies give up resources while biden has done nothing but cloud their future?
As did trump when he banned drilling as well, and only approved 2/3 of the number of new leases in his first year than Biden. You do realize that nearly half the leases of federal land are not being used, so the argument that leases are holding back production simply isn't true.
I never said regulation was the biggest cost in gas, I said reducing them was the fastest and most risk-free way to reduce the cost of oil.

As you allude, the regulation goes deep and it's pretty simple, the government has the tools to help if they chose to help.
As with anything, there is a solution that is simple, easy and wrong. I'm sure the corn state senators would gladly repeal ethanol mandates and subsidies, shipbuilding states senators repealing the Jones Act, governors in Alaska and Texas lowering state lease fees. Yea, Biden can do that.

When the Heritage Foundation says it isn't Biden's fault, that's pretty telling given their political leanings.

Trump presided over two nearly 8 year highs, and was driving gas prices up after he lost the election. Maybe if he hadn't stop drilling we'd see lower prices as wells would be coming on line.
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

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You keep saying regulation is 40% on crude despite my showing you that simply isn't true.
I get your blind hatred of Biden is blinding you to facts, but here is the breakdown per the EIA for a gallon of gas in 2021:

Refining costs and profits - 14.4%
Distribution and marketing: 15.6%
Federal and State Taxes: 16.4%
Crude Oil: 53.6%


if this is your proof that regulation doesn't add 40% to the cost of crude:
Crude Oil: 53.6%[
You have a very low standard of proof as the rest of what you list has to do with gasoline, not crude.
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by Jlc »

CSGuy wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:41 am You have a very low standard of proof as the rest of what you list has to do with gasoline, not crude.
Uh yea, because we've been talking about gasoline and the impact of crude on its price.
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by CSGuy »

Jlc wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:39 am
CSGuy wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:41 am You have a very low standard of proof as the rest of what you list has to do with gasoline, not crude.
Uh yea, because we've been talking about gasoline and the impact of crude on its price.
LMFAO...so you're sayin regulation has no impact on the price of crude....btw we started out on oil leases, that has to do with the price of crude.
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by Jlc »

CSGuy wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:38 pm
Jlc wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:39 am
CSGuy wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:41 am You have a very low standard of proof as the rest of what you list has to do with gasoline, not crude.
Uh yea, because we've been talking about gasoline and the impact of crude on its price.
LMFAO...so you're sayin regulation has no impact on the price of crude....btw we started out on oil leases, that has to do with the price of crude.
No, as I pointed out it does, just not 40% as you claim. Even Federal oil leases are~12%, much lower than private and some state leases. As I pointed out, TX gets 2x for thir leases so I guess "Abbott did that" is a sticker needed in TX. And the Federal actual lease rate is less once all sort of breaks are factored in. A lot of regulation comes in at the refining level, such as the boondoogle for corn states from ethanol requirements. And higher rail costs because shippers prefer to use rail over pipelines, even when capacity is available, since they can get a better deal for tehir crude due to rail's flexibility as well as lack of long term capacity purchase requirements.

But don't let facts get in the way of your fantasy..
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by CSGuy »

I never said regulation stopped with crude. Like you say it also adds cost at the refineries and in distribution.

By the time gas get to your tank, regulation and tax have added to the plus side of 40% to the cost of what goes in your tank.

Think about it, using your numbers, add 12.5% for leases plus18.5% for tax another 14.5% from me for the clean air act and you're already over 48%



The only fantasy is between your ears....but enough of this back and forth...I'm out
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by Jlc »

CSGuy wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:02 pm I never said regulation stopped with crude. Like you say it also adds cost at the refineries and in distribution.

By the time gas get to your tank, regulation and tax have added to the plus side of 40% to the cost of what goes in your tank.

Think about it, using your numbers, add 12.5% for leases plus 18.5% for tax another 14.5% from me for the clean air act and you're already over 48%
First it was 40% to the cost of crude, now 40% for the cost of gas. Which is it?

Where do you get 14.5% from the clean air act? I know CA costs are higher due to special blending rules for gas sold tere, but even so CA is paying a premium above what the expected price would be, even with the added costs. I suspect oil companies are getting an extra profit boost at car owners suspense, but the actual cause of the hidden surcharge is of course not known. Here is an interesting link:
https://jalopnik.com/californians-have- ... 1848681167

"Per Kara Greene, a spokeswoman for the Western States Petroleum Assn., said an average of $1.27 of each gallon of gas sold in California goes to taxes, fees and climate programs."

Using the industry number, CA pays about 23% for taxes, fees and climate programs at $5.50 gas. Even CA's high taxes, fees and climate programs charges is less than 40%. Even if you use CA's number and $4 gas nation wide it only 31%.


As for the 12.5%, as I pointed out the actual rate is less since such things as post-production costs are deducted. So if gas is $4 a gallon, $2 is from oil and assuming a 12.5% lease rate that's 50 cents. Federal tax is 18.4 cents per gallon, which is what I said, not 18.4% as you claim. The EIA said average of 16.4% Fed and State, in 2021 at $3/gallon or 6% for 18.4 cents per gallon, at $4 it would be 4%. Much of the gas tax is due to the states. So, from the feds, it's 68.4 cents per gallon, before clean air act costs. That's 17% of the costs. I suspect the actual impact of lease rate is significantly lower than 50 cents per gallon; I've seen numbers in the 6-8% range after all deductions and other costs are removed from the base used for effective lease rates. IF those are reasonable then the impact would closer to 8 or 9% due to lease fees, putting the percentage with gas tax closer to 12 or 13% before EPA costs.

If Federal leases were so uneconomic companies would not be upset they were unavailable. In reality, they are a boondoogle.

Texas charges 25%, and many private lands get much higher than 12.5%; and most of the oil comes from non-federal sources, so federal regulation, using your numbers, adds less to the costs than state and private fees. Even so, the us taxpayer should get paid for oil from Federal lands, just as a private citizen would, in fact the Feds sell oil leases at a discount to private property owners.

Take care. Time to enjoy our Sharks...
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by GRNSHRK »

OK, time to get back to Trump :-"

Saw this Doonesbury comic Sunday before last, and thought it was quite funny, and ironic at the same time \:D/

Go easy on me fellas [-o<
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by CSGuy »

Jlc wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:32 pm
CSGuy wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:02 pm I never said regulation stopped with crude. Like you say it also adds cost at the refineries and in distribution.

By the time gas get to your tank, regulation and tax have added to the plus side of 40% to the cost of what goes in your tank.

Think about it, using your numbers, add 12.5% for leases plus 18.5% for tax another 14.5% from me for the clean air act and you're already over 48%
First it was 40% to the cost of crude, now 40% for the cost of gas. Which is it?

Where do you get 14.5% from the clean air act? I know CA costs are higher due to special blending rules for gas sold tere, but even so CA is paying a premium above what the expected price would be, even with the added costs. I suspect oil companies are getting an extra profit boost at car owners suspense, but the actual cause of the hidden surcharge is of course not known. Here is an interesting link:
https://jalopnik.com/californians-have- ... 1848681167

"Per Kara Greene, a spokeswoman for the Western States Petroleum Assn., said an average of $1.27 of each gallon of gas sold in California goes to taxes, fees and climate programs."

Using the industry number, CA pays about 23% for taxes, fees and climate programs at $5.50 gas. Even CA's high taxes, fees and climate programs charges is less than 40%. Even if you use CA's number and $4 gas nation wide it only 31%.


As for the 12.5%, as I pointed out the actual rate is less since such things as post-production costs are deducted. So if gas is $4 a gallon, $2 is from oil and assuming a 12.5% lease rate that's 50 cents. Federal tax is 18.4 cents per gallon, which is what I said, not 18.4% as you claim. The EIA said average of 16.4% Fed and State, in 2021 at $3/gallon or 6% for 18.4 cents per gallon, at $4 it would be 4%. Much of the gas tax is due to the states. So, from the feds, it's 68.4 cents per gallon, before clean air act costs. That's 17% of the costs. I suspect the actual impact of lease rate is significantly lower than 50 cents per gallon; I've seen numbers in the 6-8% range after all deductions and other costs are removed from the base used for effective lease rates. IF those are reasonable then the impact would closer to 8 or 9% due to lease fees, putting the percentage with gas tax closer to 12 or 13% before EPA costs.

If Federal leases were so uneconomic companies would not be upset they were unavailable. In reality, they are a boondoogle.

Texas charges 25%, and many private lands get much higher than 12.5%; and most of the oil comes from non-federal sources, so federal regulation, using your numbers, adds less to the costs than state and private fees. Even so, the us taxpayer should get paid for oil from Federal lands, just as a private citizen would, in fact the Feds sell oil leases at a discount to private property owners.

Take care. Time to enjoy our Sharks...

LOL, just because your original numbers don't substantiate your claim, doesn't mean you get to change them and don't forget that domestic offshore leases are at 18.5%. So even using the lower number of 12.5%, taxes and regs are responsible for over 40% of what you pay for gas at the pump.
CYA
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by Jlc »

CSGuy wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 3:39 pm LOL, just because your original numbers don't substantiate your claim, doesn't mean you get to change them and don't forget that domestic offshore leases are at 18.5%. So even using the lower number of 12.5%, taxes and regs are responsible for over 40% of what you pay for gas at the pump.
CYA
Once again you got the facts wrong and randomly quote numbers as if they are facts. Offshore oils leases currently vary between 12.5% for leases in water depths between 0 and 200 meters, increasing to 18.75% at 200 meters or greater. Even so, only 15% of domestic production is from offshore rigs, though most oil is deep water unlike natural gas.

Even an oil company spoke person provided numbers below 40% in CA, one of the highest regulatory cost areas in the country.

But your are correct, you do seem incapable of understanding the basic concepts of economics no matter how simply explained.
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by CSGuy »

Jlc wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:09 pm
CSGuy wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 3:39 pm LOL, just because your original numbers don't substantiate your claim, doesn't mean you get to change them and don't forget that domestic offshore leases are at 18.5%. So even using the lower number of 12.5%, taxes and regs are responsible for over 40% of what you pay for gas at the pump.
CYA
Once again you got the facts wrong and randomly quote numbers as if they are facts. Offshore oils leases currently vary between 12.5% for leases in water depths between 0 and 200 meters, increasing to 18.75% at 200 meters or greater. Even so, only 15% of domestic production is from offshore rigs, though most oil is deep water unlike natural gas.

Even an oil company spoke person provided numbers below 40% in CA, one of the highest regulatory cost areas in the country.

But your are correct, you do seem incapable of understanding the basic concepts of economics no matter how simply explained.
You know all I've done is show that for each cost reduction you claim, there's a corresponding increase in costs. If your objectively looking at everything behind the spike in gas costs, that shouldn't be a problem.
I'm not going to be google for you but the clean air act costs are there. I will leave you with a few links where you can start looking at how bidens policies add to the cost of gas, you can start here.
https://americansforprosperity.org/bide ... as-prices/
This is old but it illustrates how the cost of regulation is buried in refining cost
https://cwilliamsmallinglaw.com/global_ ... he_CAA.pdf


meanwhile,

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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by Jlc »

CSGuy wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:27 pm ou know all I've done is show that for each cost reduction you claim, there's a corresponding increase in costs. If your objectively looking at everything behind the spike in gas costs, that shouldn't be a problem.
Except I have never claimed a cost reduction, just that your claims are wrong and you have not backed tehm up with other than speculation and memes, and in a number of cases been flat out wrong.
I'm not going to be google for you but the clean air act costs are there. I will leave you with a few links where you can start looking at how bidens policies add to the cost of gas, you can start here.
https://americansforprosperity.org/bide ... as-prices/
First of all, a number of the things there were in place long before Biden; and a number are proposed, not in place or misleading. For example, it omits that Biden sold more leases in one year than Trump; not to mention holding the largest offshore oil and gas lease sale in U.S. history.

None of teh claims are backed y any numbers on the impact on prices, other than "it will be bad."
This is old but it illustrates how the cost of regulation is buried in refining cost
https://cwilliamsmallinglaw.com/global_ ... he_CAA.pdf
Interesting pdf, especially this part:

"Since the CAA costs as a percent of total annual refinery sales would be just over one percent, the refining industry would survive the CAA. "

Kinda less than your claim of some 40%; but thanks for proving yourself wrong.
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CSGuy
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by CSGuy »

LMAO, amazing what someone can overlook when they want to but at least you have a starting point to learn from.

Now go see what the cca ads to the cost of crude, how its helped limit refinery capacity expansion to far less than the increase in demand then maybe get back to your statement on oil producers desire for stability and ask how the unstable regulatory environment biden's created affects how they invest for the future and how that that impacts what you pay for a gallon of gas.
I think you also said gasoline pricing is complex, well is the cost of regulation and to get a better handle on it, you'll need to look farther than the simple charts published by the government and their shills.
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by Jlc »

CSGuy wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:45 pm LMAO, amazing what someone can overlook when they want to but at least you have a starting point to learn from.

Now go see what the cca ads to the cost of crude, how its helped limit refinery capacity expansion to far less than the increase in demand then maybe get back to your statement on oil producers desire for stability and ask how the unstable regulatory environment biden's created affects how they invest for the future and how that that impacts what you pay for a gallon of gas.
I think you also said gasoline pricing is complex, well is the cost of regulation and to get a better handle on it, you'll need to look farther than the simple charts published by the government and their shills.
Put up some numbers. Prove your 45% of the cost due to regulation.

I've put up ones with references, even the links you post fail to make your point; in some cases even refute it. Your own CCA link said about 1% impact.

As for increase in demand, as I pointed out, the oil companies prefer to keep price high by their own admission; following OPEC's lead.

As for shills, I've used some industry numbers which hardly qualify as shills.
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by CSGuy »

Jlc wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:09 pm
CSGuy wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:45 pm LMAO, amazing what someone can overlook when they want to but at least you have a starting point to learn from.

Now go see what the cca ads to the cost of crude, how its helped limit refinery capacity expansion to far less than the increase in demand then maybe get back to your statement on oil producers desire for stability and ask how the unstable regulatory environment biden's created affects how they invest for the future and how that that impacts what you pay for a gallon of gas.
I think you also said gasoline pricing is complex, well is the cost of regulation and to get a better handle on it, you'll need to look farther than the simple charts published by the government and their shills.
Put up some numbers. Prove your 45% of the cost due to regulation.

I've put up ones with references, even the links you post fail to make your point; in some cases even refute it. Your own CCA link said about 1% impact.

As for increase in demand, as I pointed out, the oil companies prefer to keep price high by their own admission; following OPEC's lead.

As for shills, I've used some industry numbers which hardly qualify as shills.
You've misstated lease costs since the beginning and without justification. And without some meaningful path forward for the oil companies, why would they cut prices or impact their reserves for bidens gain.

Maybe you can tell us what biden has done to help oil find that path and cut prices?

As for for the cost of combined regulation and tax, Telling all is defiantly not in the governments best interest and there's only one study I've seen that tallies CAA costs into a % per barrel...

Here's info giving some of the more individual costs that you may want to use to form your own opinion of what regulation/taxes cost the US fuel consumer

this is from 2012, Charles Kennedy

"In 2011 the three oil giants mentioned above paid more income tax than any other American corporation. ExxonMobil paid $27.3 billion in income tax, Chevron paid $17 billion, and ConocoPhillips paid $10.6 billion.

These huge sums gave the companies equally huge effective tax rates. ExxonMobil’s tax rate was 42.9%, Chevron’s was 48.3%, and ConocoPhillips’ was 41.5%. These figures are higher than the US federal statutory rate of 35%, which is the highest tax rate in the developed world"


Other commonly available info

" The Clean Air Act

The effects of the Clean Air Act have mainly been positive for the gas drilling industry. The overall aim of the act is a reduction in the emissions of greenhouse gases, with a long-term goal of 95% reduction in volatile organic compounds. The act stipulates that operators must take measures to capture natural gas that escapes into the air (green completion). Also, there are incentives for businesses to implement this technology ahead of the deadlines. The technology allows for the natural gases to be caught and treated and then sold instead of being released as waste.6

The estimated revenues are expected to exceed the costs of compliance. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) suggests that while meeting the Clean Air Act regulations will cost $65 billion from 1990 to 2020."

and there is this

"From 2000 through 2014, governments boosted their share from $9.90 per barrel of oil equivalent (BOE) to $30.40, an increase of $20.50 per BOE. The government take averaged 52 percent of revenues from 2009 through 2014 and reached more than 80 percent in countries such as Algeria and Indonesia. (See Exhibit 1.) Offshore operators bear a marginally higher burden, despite their typically higher cost base. The government take accounted for almost $30 per BOE of offshore costs in 20142 , compared with $29 per BOE of onshore costs"
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Jlc
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Re: President Donald J Trump makes history...

Post by Jlc »

CSGuy wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:41 pm
You've misstated lease costs since the beginning and without justification
I used the existing lease rates to point out Biden has not raised them, though I did only give the less than 200 feet number since I focused on land lease rates and your incorrect claim that Biden raised leases 43% to 18.5.
And without some meaningful path forward for the oil companies, why would they cut prices or impact their reserves for bidens gain.

Maybe you can tell us what biden has done to help oil find that path and cut prices?
Issue more leases than Trump?
As for for the cost of combined regulation and tax, Telling all is defiantly not in the governments best interest and there's only one study I've seen that tallies CAA costs into a % per barrel...
Which you gave and was about 1.3 percent. Now you don't like the number you provided?
Here's info giving some of the more individual costs that you may want to use to form your own opinion of what regulation/taxes cost the US fuel consumer

this is from 2012, Charles Kennedy

"In 2011 the three oil giants mentioned above paid more income tax than any other American corporation. ExxonMobil paid $27.3 billion in income tax, Chevron paid $17 billion, and ConocoPhillips paid $10.6 billion.

These huge sums gave the companies equally huge effective tax rates. ExxonMobil’s tax rate was 42.9%, Chevron’s was 48.3%, and ConocoPhillips’ was 41.5%. These figures are higher than the US federal statutory rate of 35%, which is the highest tax rate in the developed world"
Here's a study of the actual tax rate for around that period:

According to their financial statements, 20 of the largest oil and gas companies reported a total of $133.3 billion in U.S. pre-tax income from 2009 through 2013. These companies reported total federal income taxes during this period of $32.1 billion, giving them a federal effective tax rate (ETR) of 24.0 percent. Special provisions in the U.S. tax code allowed these companies to defer payment of more than half of this tax bill. This group of companies actually paid $15.6 billion in income taxes to the federal government during the last five years, equal to 11.7 percent of their U.S. pre-tax income. This measure, the amount of U.S. income tax paid regularly every tax period (i.e. not deferred), is known as the “current” tax rate.
Four of the companies in this study – ExxonMobil, ConocoPhillips, Occidental, and Chevron – account for 84 percent of all the income and paid 85 percent of all the taxes for the entire group. These four had an ETR of 24.4 percent and a current ETR of only
13.3 percent. The smaller firms paid an even smaller share of their tax liability on a current basis. When the top four
companies and those with losses are excluded from the analysis, the remaining companies reported a 28.9 percent ETR on U.S. income, but only a 3.7 percent current rate. They deferred over 87 percent of their tax liability.


Source: https://www.taxpayer.net/wp-content/upl ... Report.pdf

Other commonly available info

The estimated revenues are expected to exceed the costs of compliance. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) suggests that while meeting the Clean Air Act regulations will cost $65 billion from 1990 to 2020."
So now you are saying the money they make will exceed the costs? Ok. Even I never made that claim.
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