Binding brakes/faulty master cylinder; mystery solved???

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Brucey
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Post by Brucey »

deacs wrote:Regardless it's worth a try ah the rebuild considering the absolutely rediculous cost of a master cylinder for it...... Unless uou know where I can get one new for sensible money. By sensible I mean less than £100!!!
I agree, but don't hold your breath!

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Post by Brucey »

ron wrote:
JCS wrote: .....and I also upgraded to the 750i M/C.
These stick as well. Just had to replace mine. Brucey has my old one and is going to strip it to check why.
Hi Ron,
I meant to let you know before now but I took a look at it and as expected the guide bushing is swollen. In fact it is so swollen that I can't even get it out of the MC! After trying 'quite hard' I put it to one side before I broke it completely.

My suspicion is that any leakage of ATF from the servo will dribble along the shaft (esp when you use the brakes) and thence contaminate the phenolic bushing material and makes it swell. Maybe the brake fluid makes it swell also. Maybe it just isn't stable over time... who knows...

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deacs

Post by deacs »

Question on the baffle plate in the master cylinder What is its purpose, why is it only on the one port?
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Post by Brucey »

IIRC it prevents the stopper pin from jumping out of the MC.

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Phenolic Spacer

Post by JCS »

Does anyone know where to get the phenolic spacer for an ATE 23.81mm M/C, the repair kits do not show it enclosed in the repair kit # 34311103743



Thanks in advance,

Best,
Attachments
This is the repair kit for the 633.<br />up to 9/82 # 34311103743.<br />You have to reuse the springs.<br />The phenolic spacer is replaced with a rubber washer and metal washer.
This is the repair kit for the 633.
up to 9/82 # 34311103743.
You have to reuse the springs.
The phenolic spacer is replaced with a rubber washer and metal washer.
P5260004.JPG (260.51 KiB) Viewed 17881 times
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'88 750iL master cylinder from Rock Auto By URO DON'T BUY

Post by JCS »

Hey Guys,

DON'T BUY, THEY SUCK, 2nd day, when the Brake fluid heats up they LOCKED ON!!!

Note!!! I made a MISTAKE, the M/C was not the problem, The booster shackle adjustment at the brake pedal was the problem, it was off by 5.7mm, please see my explanation on page 3

I found a source for the '88 750iL Master Cylinder.
At Rock Auto, it is made by URO, its made in China and is new, not remanufactured. It is $66.99, with no core.

I sent URO an e-mail, on Sunday, asking where it was made, and if it was remanufactured.
I received a reply on Monday, form the head of marketing, he wrote that it was made in China, by a very large firm that sells to many new car automakers. And that there have been no returns.

I ordered from Rock Auto and it arrived in 2 days. Total $72.26 with shipping.
I am installing this 750iL into my '88 m6, it does have the slightly larger bore then my old stock m6 M/C.

Here is the Link,
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php

Best,
Last edited by JCS on Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Pod »

Thanks for sharing!

I logged on to the link but had to search from then on. Am I correct in stating that it is Part # 34311156643 ?

They quoted shipping to me in England at £12.07 (about $18.95) which is very good. Usually it costs an arm and a leg to ship US=England.
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URO M/C

Post by JCS »

Pod,

DON'T BUY, THEY SUCK, 2nd day, when the Brake fluid heats up they LOCKED ON!!!

Note!!! I made a MISTAKE, the M/C was not the problem, The booster shackle adjustment at the brake pedal was the problem, it was off by 5.7mm, please see my explanation on page 3

Yes, that's the correct #.

You also get new grommets, and bolts.

I shave the side of the M/C so I can use a 13 mm ratcheting Gear Wrench.
Don't get it too hot, as you can melt the innards.

I am also installing one of my rebuilt Brake Servo Boosters, while I am in there, new bomb too.

I got this '88 m6 last Aug. And the brakes locked up last week.

Best,
Attachments
P6240002.JPG
P6240002.JPG (235.98 KiB) Viewed 19242 times
P6240003.JPG
P6240003.JPG (224.02 KiB) Viewed 19242 times
P6240001.JPG
P6240001.JPG (263.56 KiB) Viewed 19242 times
Last edited by JCS on Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:04 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: '88 750iL master cylinder from Rock Auto made By URO

Post by slofut »

JCS wrote:Hey Guys,

I found a source for the '88 750iL Master Cylinder.
At Rock Auto, it is made by URO, its made in China and is new, not remanufactured. It is $66.99, with no core.

I sent URO an e-mail, on Sunday, asking where it was made, and if it was remanufactured.
I received a reply on Monday, form the head of marketing, he wrote that it was made in China, by a very large firm that sells to many new car automakers. And that there have been no returns.

I ordered from Rock Auto and it arrived in 2 days. Total $72.26 with shipping.
I am installing this 750iL into my '88 m6, it does have the slightly larger bore then my old stock m6 M/C.

Here is the Link,
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php

Best,

STICKY!!

Thanks much! =D>
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Post by Chris Wright »

Are the '88/'89 a different part then the earlier MC's?

Do keep us updated on how this master cylinder lasts. URO has a bad reputation, but hopefully this is a good supplier. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day! :mrgreen:

Maybe you could post any supplier info you have for this MC in case URO changes sources to save a dime.
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Post by JCS »

Hi Chris,

DON'T BUY, THEY SUCK, 2nd day, when the Brake fluid heats up they LOCKED ON!!!

Note!!! I made a MISTAKE, the M/C was not the problem, The booster shackle adjustment at the brake pedal was the problem, it was off by 5.7mm, please see my explanation on page 3

So a bad reputation?
Are there any posts or threads?
The M/C's fit my '88 m6.
LOL, I'll check next time I am in China.

Best,
Last edited by JCS on Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by hornhospital »

Google "BMW URO parts reviews". It'll be eye-opening. FCP Groton quit carrying the URO brand due to all the warranty returns. I got drawn in to buying a complete E36 front end rebuild kit from them because of the low price. That was a very foolish move. The lower control arm ball joints failed in less that 3 months, along with the bushings. The inner tie rod ends wore out in 6 months.

A friend of mine bought a URO master cylinder for his E30, new, not rebuilt. It failed in two weeks. The casting was so porous the bore chewed the master cylinder piston seals to pieces.
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Post by slofut »

Had a few parts in hand for the jag a few years ago. Kinda like harbour freight for auto parts, and I did use some of them ok. Just MY humble opinion.
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Re: URO M/C

Post by sansouci »

JCS wrote:Pod,

Yes, that's the correct #.

You also get new grommets, and bolts.

I shave the side of the M/C so I can use a 13 mm ratcheting Gear Wrench.
Don't get it too hot, as you can melt the innards.

I am also installing one of my rebuilt Brake Servo Boosters, while I am in there, new bomb too.

I got this '88 m6 last Aug. And the brakes locked up last week.

Best,
Jay,
How did the rebuilt brake system work with the larger M/C?
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Re: URO M/C

Post by JCS »

sansouci wrote:
JCS wrote:Pod,

Yes, that's the correct #.

You also get new grommets, and bolts.

I shave the side of the M/C so I can use a 13 mm ratcheting Gear Wrench.
Don't get it too hot, as you can melt the innards.

I am also installing one of my rebuilt Brake Servo Boosters, while I am in there, new bomb too.

I got this '88 m6 last Aug. And the brakes locked up last week.

Best,
Note!!! I made a MISTAKE, the M/C was not the problem, The booster shackle adjustment at the brake pedal was the problem, it was off by 5.7mm, please see my explanation on page 3

Jay,
How did the rebuilt brake system work with the larger M/C?

I could not tell any difference.
Last edited by JCS on Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by sansouci »

Interesting. Is the theory that a larger M/C should require less effort? Or does the power assist dampen the force so that from a drivers' perspective its not noticeable unless you are actually measuring the pedal effort?
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Post by Brucey »

in theory you should have to use a higher pedal pressure with a larger MC.

In reality this isn't a large amount (15% or something in this case, its written up in the brake upgrade thread) and if you have changed other braking system parts at the same time (for the better) then you conceivably mightn't notice.

If you stiffen the system up too much (large MC, better hoses etc) then you may reach the point that some folk will start to mither about the brake pedal 'lacking feel' and being difficult to modulate etc. Personal taste is important here, but even so it is obvious that if you have a brake pedal that works like a light switch, you won't do too well with it under certain circumstances.

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I am going on my 7th M/C?

Post by JCS »

Hi Folks,

Above I talked about my saga with the 2 Chinese Master Cylinders, that locked up.
Well I went back to Ate made in Germany, I have now gone thru 3 new ones. On my '88 m6, all failed.
Note!!! I made a MISTAKE, the M/C was not the problem, The booster shackle adjustment at the brake pedal was the problem, it was off by 5.7mm, please see my explanation on page 3

1. Original M/C in July Failed
2. URO Failed
3. Centric Failed
4. Ate in August, returned in Dec
5. Ate in Dec under warranty, returned in Dec
6. Ate in Feb Under warranty, failed Feb, cannot return,

I worked with Autohaus AZ, on the returns, I even sent them a link to this article, along with the Recall Notice link.
I asked AZ to forward to ATe USA. They (ATe) say it is not their M/C, as they have only had returns from me, and no others.
Since they AZ told me that #5 would be my last return, I then went through the entire hydraulic system.

1. I replaced the PSP in Jan 2016
2. I replaced the Brake bomb in July 2015
3. I replaced the Brake booster in Jul 2015
4. I rebuilt all 4 Brake Calipers, and new brake pads, and new Brake fluid, Jan 2016
5. I removed the ATF canister, cleaned it up, a new filter and the 4 low pressure return hoses and clamps, as i had a leak, Jan 2016
6. New ATF, Jan 2016

And the brakes on all 4 wheels have locked up again on the first trip, so severely that I could not move the car, even a foot.
It seams to be related to Temperture, when the motor heats up, the brakes start locking on.
The only thing I did not replace is the ABS.

Has anyone else had this problem?

Now I am going to contact Ralph for some junk yard M/C's.

Best,
Last edited by JCS on Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Binding brakes/faulty master cylinder; mystery solved???

Post by Brucey »

That is rotten luck; if the pedal feel is different (as described in my first post in this thread) when the brakes are dragging then it is almost certain that the MC is binding. The usual cause is swelling in the bushing at the back of the MC.

However to have been through as many MCs as you in this length of time is remarkable. I wonder if there is something else going on?

For example what brake fluid are you using? Could there be/have been a bad ATF weep from the servo onto the MC guide bushing? If so that will make it swell up and a little heat will then cause it to stick.

BTW I took a look at Ron's failed MC and I think it is the guide bushing, just like all the others I have seen. The guide bushing was so tight in Ron's MC that I couldn't get it out; tipping a kettle full of boiling water over the rear end of the MC made it bind worse immediately too, so it is pretty conclusive.

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Re: Binding brakes/faulty master cylinder; mystery solved???

Post by JCS »

Brucey,

Note!!! I made a MISTAKE, the M/C was not the problem, The booster shackle adjustment at the brake pedal was the problem, it was off by 5.7mm, please see my explanation on page 3

Thanks for your reply,
1. Brake Fluid is Valvoline Synthetic Dot 3 & 4
2. No ATF leak from the Brake Booster, so no cross contamination.
3. All of the previous M/C's #3 - 6 failed either on the first or second drive over 5-10 minuets. Except for #1 that came with the car, and #4, lasted 2.5 months, listed in my previous post.
4. I have purchased an infrared thermometer so i am doing a test today, and will check the temp of the M/C, when it locks up the brakes, I will post the results.
5. I am thinking of removing the M/C and placing it in the oven. And seeing if it sticks.

Best,
Last edited by JCS on Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Binding brakes/faulty master cylinder; mystery solved???

Post by Ralph in Socal »

Hello Jay,

I do have a couple of M/C cores for you and an Anti-Lock unit as well. The only time I have had a problem with wheels locking up was in an MBZ and it was the M/C that had gotten clogged and would not relieve pressure after applying the brakes.

It seems your problem is different. Have you noticed a different pedal feel when the brakes are locked up? Is the pedal very hard when locked up? Will the brakes lock up without using the brake pedal at all and just based on an increase in engine temp or running time? My thought process is the Brake Booster is failing to relieve pressure as when you would let off the pedal. It may be providing brake assist without the pedal being depressed. I know the return line connector from the Booster has a screen/check system and small orifice that could get plugged up. Give me a couple of days to get the parts to you.


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Re: Binding brakes/faulty master cylinder; mystery solved???

Post by bpoliakoff »

It’s a shame you are across the way. There are 3-4 rebuilders of master cylinders. Best part of the process is they bore the cylinders out and resleeve them in stainless steel. One that comes to mind is White Post Restorations and possibly Apple hydraulics. I am sure you can find them on Google. I have no idea of cost, but with all of the problems you guys have in England it may make sense for you.
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Re: Binding brakes/faulty master cylinder; mystery solved???

Post by sansouci »

FWIW, Here's an earlier post regarding a rebuilt master cylinder:
by sansouci » Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:36 pm

Rock didn't have any and so a few weeks ago, I contacted Cardone, who kindly whipped up a M/C for me with no grub screw. I put it in (I'm getting better with practice). Now I may have some very minor drippage out of the booster.
So this weekend I resolved to send the booster to Jay Stratton. After removing the cooling reservoir (to get better access to the M/C); removed the M/C, dropping the dash under-panel, loosening the 4 bolts on the fire wall and loosening the high pressure hose with tiny turns of my crowfoot wrench from the P/S pump to the booster--I chickened out. The HP hose looks difficult to reattach and the upper left nut on the booster through the firewall is almost a blind shot in the dark. Jay had a good suggestion of wrapping tape over the swivel to firm it up and (my own idea) of double face tape in the socket so that the nut wont fall out and Jose's suggestion that I prevent the nut from falling under the carpet.
So, I am reflecting on whether at 68+ I've got the flexibility and patience to do what is necessary on my E24 and E32 to bring them to a state of proper repair and good looks.
But if the drippage gets worse, I'll put Craftman wrenches in hand, get out the alligator jack, jackstands, drip pans and whatever else is needed and do right by my cars.
Sure, in the morning I pay for it with cricks in my back. But better than the pain in the wallet of someone else doing it.
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Re: Binding brakes/faulty master cylinder; mystery solved???

Post by JCS »

Ken,

You can do it,
the 4 - 13 mm hex nuts holding the booster to the firewall are difficult but doable. you need about 18 inches of extension pcs for your 3/8 drive and a swivel with tape on it (that you've done) I used a regular long 13 mm socket, (pull the sound insulation block with 4 holes out of the way - remove it).
Make sure you have a very bright light,

And when you do the install, you can hold the nut edge to the socket with tape.

Now on the booster high pressure line you need a flare wrench for the hose fitting, it is very tight, and a normal open end wrench will round over the high pressure hex nut, and you will not get it removed, it will strip.
You mentioned your crowfoot wrench, is it a crowfoot flare?
Most experienced mechanics learn that hydraulic fittings need a flare wrench. All of your comments you've made are showing its time to hang up your tools, I suggested to you to go to a mechanic before, because of the questions that you are asking. I also am an old guy and i have a very bad back, and when i work an hour i then go lay down for two hours, and repeat.
If your booster has the tall hex nut on the top of the booster high pressure inlet you can use an open end wrench on it to counteract the flare wrench on the high pressure hose flare wrench, and squeeze the two wrenches together, using both hands. The top flare undoing and the bottom wrench holding the tall hex nut still.
If you need a picture send me your e-mail address to jay_c_stratton at hotmail.com
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Re: Binding brakes/faulty master cylinder; mystery solved???

Post by sansouci »

JCS wrote:Ken,

You can do it,
the 4 - 13 mm hex nuts holding the booster to the firewall are difficult but doable. you need about 18 inches of extension pcs for your 3/8 drive and a swivel with tape on it (that you've done) I used a regular long 13 mm socket, (pull the sound insulation block with 4 holes out of the way - remove it).
Make sure you have a very bright light,

And when you do the install, you can hold the nut edge to the socket with tape.

Now on the booster high pressure line you need a flare wrench for the hose fitting, it is very tight, and a normal open end wrench will round over the high pressure hex nut, and you will not get it removed, it will strip.
You mentioned your crowfoot wrench, is it a crowfoot flare?
Most experienced mechanics learn that hydraulic fittings need a flare wrench. All of your comments you've made are showing its time to hang up your tools, I suggested to you to go to a mechanic before, because of the questions that you are asking. I also am an old guy and i have a very bad back, and when i work an hour i then go lay down for two hours, and repeat.
If your booster has the tall hex nut on the top of the booster high pressure inlet you can use an open end wrench on it to counteract the flare wrench on the high pressure hose flare wrench, and squeeze the two wrenches together, using both hands. The top flare undoing and the bottom wrench holding the tall hex nut still.
If you need a picture send me your e-mail address to jay_c_stratton at hotmail.com
Sansouci
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