1984 633CSi Rises again!

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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by hornhospital »

The fuel pump relay powers up when the key is turned to start, but if the DME doesn't "see" the crankshaft turning from pulses at the position sensor it shuts off power to the relay. To jumper the relay you need a connection to both 87, 30 AND 86. The DME kills power to 85/86 if it doesn't see the crank turning, which kills power to the pump. The engine starts on that tiny pulse of fuel when the key is turned on but immediately quits because pressure to the injectors drops to zero.

Hope that helps.

And stay safe!
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'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by kronus »

sounds like two possibilities:
- bad pulse/ref sensors
- (improbably, but I've heard of it happening) flywheel tossed out the pin that those sensors trigger on
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Time for a visit to the Car Doctor

Post by songzunhuang »

Well, I have tried as much as I have time for. I need to get my car back on the road and I am too busy and there's too much rain. Today I received a new Bosch Speed Sensor and also the Programa ECU. I tried the ECU first, no change. Then I tried the new sensor. No change. It's weird, but here's what it's doing.

First start attempt actually works when cold. It runs, very poorly for several minutes. The engine struggles to rev if I do accelerate quickly. If I go slowly, it's better but still not so smooth. I also notice a lot more emissions than before out the tailpipe.

Here's a link to a video of what happens when it does start and run for a while.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/eWuZaWdv6yUaSygU6

When I shut it down and try to start it again, it cranks and cranks with no start. I repeated this with both the sensor and stock ECU and the sensor and new ECU. Basically, not much different.

Oh, that 2 gallon bucket I put to catch the water coming off of the passenger side a pillar drain? Here's what we have.
2 Gal bucket is 1/3 full.
2 Gal bucket is 1/3 full.
Blue Bucket a third full.png (1.27 MiB) Viewed 3081 times
I'd say we have a little over half a gallon here.

Anyhow, I am going to look into a tow to the independent mechanics to diagnose further.
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Re: Time for a visit to the Car Doctor

Post by KINGJOHN808 »

songzunhuang wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:48 am Well, I have tried as much as I have time for. I need to get my car back on the road and I am too busy and there's too much rain. Today I received a new Bosch Speed Sensor and also the Programa ECU. I tried the ECU first, no change. Then I tried the new sensor. No change. It's weird, but here's what it's doing.

First start attempt actually works when cold. It runs, very poorly for several minutes. The engine struggles to rev if I do accelerate quickly. If I go slowly, it's better but still not so smooth. I also notice a lot more emissions than before out the tailpipe.

Here's a link to a video of what happens when it does start and run for a while.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/eWuZaWdv6yUaSygU6

When I shut it down and try to start it again, it cranks and cranks with no start. I repeated this with both the sensor and stock ECU and the sensor and new ECU. Basically, not much different.

Oh, that 2 gallon bucket I put to catch the water coming off of the passenger side a pillar drain? Here's what we have.
Blue Bucket a third full.png
I'd say we have a little over half a gallon here.

Anyhow, I am going to look into a tow to the independent mechanics to diagnose further.
Aloha Song, glad to hear that you and the family are safe up north with all the rain and such going on. Have family in Modesto and San Francisco, they are having a hell of a time.

My 84 was doing the exact same thing as the video you posted. Quick question, when you start the car, it runs rough and lots of smoke (high emissions/running rich) from the tail pipe? If you can keep the car running (without touching the throttle) does the issue go away after say 3 to 5 minutes? The issue is all the time, regardless of it’s the first start of the day/morning or even after driving it, then letting it sit? Like in the video, my car would shake violently when giving it the slightest amount of gas, then shut off. Sometimes it’s would start right back up, sometimes it wouldn’t.

After testing/changing the fuel pump relay, changing both references sensors with new units, checking fuel delivery from the FPR, fuel injector wiring/connections…what appeared to fix the problem (hasn’t happened again for a year now) was disconnecting the cold start valve.

I’m not sure if it was leaking or always on but the problem has gone away. It doesn’t get nearly as cold here as Northern Cali, so I disconnected it as a test and no issues with starting or running since.

Hope this helps or at least provides another avenue as to what could be causing the issue.

Aloha and stay safe out there.
Ewa Kai, Hawai’i
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Re: Time for a visit to the Car Doctor

Post by songzunhuang »

KINGJOHN808 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:53 pm
songzunhuang wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:48 am Well, I have tried as much as I have time for. I need to get my car back on the road and I am too busy and there's too much rain. Today I received a new Bosch Speed Sensor and also the Programa ECU. I tried the ECU first, no change. Then I tried the new sensor. No change. It's weird, but here's what it's doing.

First start attempt actually works when cold. It runs, very poorly for several minutes. The engine struggles to rev if I do accelerate quickly. If I go slowly, it's better but still not so smooth. I also notice a lot more emissions than before out the tailpipe.

Here's a link to a video of what happens when it does start and run for a while.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/eWuZaWdv6yUaSygU6

When I shut it down and try to start it again, it cranks and cranks with no start. I repeated this with both the sensor and stock ECU and the sensor and new ECU. Basically, not much different.

Oh, that 2 gallon bucket I put to catch the water coming off of the passenger side a pillar drain? Here's what we have.
Blue Bucket a third full.png
I'd say we have a little over half a gallon here.

Anyhow, I am going to look into a tow to the independent mechanics to diagnose further.
Aloha Song, glad to hear that you and the family are safe up north with all the rain and such going on. Have family in Modesto and San Francisco, they are having a hell of a time.

My 84 was doing the exact same thing as the video you posted. Quick question, when you start the car, it runs rough and lots of smoke (high emissions/running rich) from the tail pipe? If you can keep the car running (without touching the throttle) does the issue go away after say 3 to 5 minutes? The issue is all the time, regardless of it’s the first start of the day/morning or even after driving it, then letting it sit? Like in the video, my car would shake violently when giving it the slightest amount of gas, then shut off. Sometimes it’s would start right back up, sometimes it wouldn’t.

After testing/changing the fuel pump relay, changing both references sensors with new units, checking fuel delivery from the FPR, fuel injector wiring/connections…what appeared to fix the problem (hasn’t happened again for a year now) was disconnecting the cold start valve.

I’m not sure if it was leaking or always on but the problem has gone away. It doesn’t get nearly as cold here as Northern Cali, so I disconnected it as a test and no issues with starting or running since.

Hope this helps or at least provides another avenue as to what could be causing the issue.

Aloha and stay safe out there.
Hmm, that's very interesting and does sound similar. I do know my plugs are fouled and my exhaust smells a lot more than it used to. Thanks for your experience. Maybe I'll tell the shop to try that. It turns out that the car is at the shop now. See my next post.

Oh, an update on the bucket catching the water. After a full day of downpours, it is completely full! It's a bit shocking.
Full of water.
Full of water.
Bucket Full.png (2.02 MiB) Viewed 2986 times
I am definitely going to need to complete that extension out the front sill when the rain lets up. There's so much rain that it's getting really silly. I guess the years long drought will not be a thing in 2023.
Last edited by songzunhuang on Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Flashlight Fix and a Ride to the Shop

Post by songzunhuang »

So before I sent my car off to the shop, I decided to fix my flashlight. It's been in the car for years and not working. I finally saw a repair kit on Etsy and ordered it from Poland. Also, I can fix a flashlight inside, away from the ridiculous rain. So here's how it went.

First to get the light open, I used a razor saw. The halves were glued and it was still holding tight.
I opened it with a Razor saw.
I opened it with a Razor saw.
Flashlight cut.png (1.02 MiB) Viewed 3026 times
After it's open, you can see that the battery is shot. So I cleaned up the parts and put it back together. The soldering of the tabs was a pain in the butt!
Here's all the guts.
Here's all the guts.
Flashlight open.png (1.26 MiB) Viewed 3026 times
I glued it back together and all is well. I have a working 39 year old flashlight.
All good!
All good!
Flashlight works.png (817.77 KiB) Viewed 3026 times
So at least that's one good thing that's happened lately.

Early this morning, I had a flatbed take my car to the mechanic. It was raining like crazy, but I needed the car to get looked at. The ride to the shop was only 8 miles away and they said I was given a discount at $180. An expensive ride!
Time to goto the doctor.
Time to goto the doctor.
Hitching a Ride.png (1.53 MiB) Viewed 3026 times
So far, there's not been much done. They just called and said I needed new plugs since they were fouled. They couldn't continue until those were replaced. Then I am reminded of why shops drive me crazy at times. They want $175 to replace the plugs. Seriously? It's barely a half hour job and Bosch plugs are like $4 each? Oh well, the process begins.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by GRNSHRK »

Song, you should have gone with the LED conversion, while you were at it :-k

viewtopic.php?t=32775

Here's a shot of mine, crazy bright \:D/

So sorry to see your shark on a flatbed :(

FWIW, BTDT :-({|=
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Glovebox flashlight.jpg (751.63 KiB) Viewed 2995 times
:mrgreen:
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

GRNSHRK wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 7:37 pm Song, you should have gone with the LED conversion, while you were at it :-k

viewtopic.php?t=32775

Here's a shot of mine, crazy bright \:D/

So sorry to see your shark on a flatbed :(

FWIW, BTDT :-({|=
I took a quick look on Amazon and it looks like I can get LED bulbs that'll fit that light for pretty cheap.
https://a.co/d/gOwtU6z

I mean $6 for 4 of them. Problem is, I don't really need this light to be so bright. I actually keep a handy rechargeable worklight in the glovebox as well. It's like 600 lumens or something crazy bright. The built in glovebox light is fun for nostalgic effect.

I've put the LED version in my shopping list while I ponder.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by GRNSHRK »

Those LED's appear to be the correct polarity =D>

The one I used was reverse polarity, as is typical of LED's :-?

Nice find \:D/

I've often wondered why LED's can't be made with the correct polarity, or only some are :roll:
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Rich or Lean, or Something Else?

Post by songzunhuang »

So a video is worth a thousand words. Here's a video I made of my car on startup and idling. This was a few weeks ago before the intermittent no-start and stalling got really bad.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7GUaM3USnE9iQkkP8

At this time, many think my car is running rich. The strong exhaust smell and fouled plugs seem to point to that conclusion. I was always under the impression that rich running meant black exhaust. Take a look at the video and tell me what you see. Black or white?
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by 86_6series »

White smoke, I would do a compression test on the cylinders. Usually white smoke is antifreeze related.
Where all the plugs wet?
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

86_6series wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:29 am White smoke, I would do a compression test on the cylinders. Usually white smoke is antifreeze related.
Where all the plugs wet?
Yes, I though it was white as well. That's why I was confused when people kept telling me it was running rich and that would have black smoke. No the plugs not wet, but were carbon fouled. I had the top end rebuilt several years ago...I'll have to check the year, but I think 2018. The head gasket was replaced and all the usual stuff done. I'll keep an eye on the coolant level just to be safe. Thanks for taking a look.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by 86_6series »

Yes, your right--

Black is fuel
White is water
Blue is oil

Good luck with the solution.
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Report from the Shop - problem found.

Post by songzunhuang »

So I got a call today from the shop and they have found the problem. The wire of the in-line resistor that was added as a service update by the BMW dealers had broken. This 270 ohm resistor was added to the harness that clips to the Thermo-time sensor, installed at the thermostat housing. The resistor is installed inline under the rubber boot, so you can't see it under normal inspection. Since the wire had broken, there was no signal.

It turns out that in the past 2 days, I had come across an old thread that had the exact same outcome.
Too bad I didn't see this thread a few days earlier. viewtopic.php?p=237103#p237103
If I did, I could have saved a lot of money. The fix was to simply remove the resistor and bridge the gap in the wiring.

So this resistor removal and wiring set me back around $550, not to mention a lot of pain over the weeks as the car was unreliable, kept stalling and leaving me stranded. I'm scheduled to pick up the car in a few days and I hope I'll have a period of relative bliss after this. So ends another chapter in the saga of daily life with the shark.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by 86_6series »

Song,

Does that $550 include the spark plugs? Even if it doesn't, not a bad price to find that elusive problem.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

86_6series wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:25 am Song,

Does that $550 include the spark plugs? Even if it doesn't, not a bad price to find that elusive problem.
Yes it included new Bosch plugs. I asked and they were $12 each. I thought that a bit high, but ok.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by TimU »

Good to have an easy solution, especially when it's something that was never listed in the official troubleshooting manual.
$550 is about 4 hours labour where I live.
I don't think that's too bad a price to track down and resolve a tricky problem like this.

Glad you're back up and running!
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

TimU wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:34 am Good to have an easy solution, especially when it's something that was never listed in the official troubleshooting manual.
$550 is about 4 hours labour where I live.
I don't think that's too bad a price to track down and resolve a tricky problem like this.

Glad you're back up and running!
Yeah, I'll count my blessings that it wasn't more. I think they spent a little over 2 hours on it. The rate was $175 per hour. Mechanics are getting expensive. In the overall cost, I didn't include the towing.

=====< update on 1/21 >===

Here's the harness that was repaired. It's the brown one that's disconnected in the picture. The resistor was behind the rubber boot on the harness. This is connected to the sensor mounted on the thermostat housing. I hope someone finds this issue much faster than I did if they are having various odd issues.
This was the culprit of my recent problems.
This was the culprit of my recent problems.
Temp Sensor harness.png (1.42 MiB) Viewed 2705 times
I have driven my car over 100 miles since the repair. Highway, city, stop and go, cold mornings. All is well now. The car runs smoother than I have ever remembered. Right now I am very happy with my car. :D
Last edited by songzunhuang on Sun Jan 22, 2023 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Water Drain Tube Fix

Post by songzunhuang »

After all the rain and verifying that I had tons of water dumping in my passenger footwell, I finally got around to fixing this for good. Thanks to an excellent post I saw in another thread on this forum. viewtopic.php?t=23124&start=25

I used a 5/8" outside diameter rubber hose to take care of this. This is 16mm for metric folks. It fit perfectly snug in the original tube attached to the sunroof drain. I used pipe tape to secure the joint between the original hose and my rubber hose. After much experimenting with coat hangers and aluminum wires, I found that the easiest way to pull this off was with a rope as a guide. Here it is in pictures for my solution.

It took a while to figure out what to use to make this easiest. I finally settled on a rope. First, I took off the splash guard in the fender well. Then I pushed a rope into the hole and into the sill. I could see the rope through the holes in the inside of the sill.
A nylon rope worked really well for me.
A nylon rope worked really well for me.
Using a rope.png (2.02 MiB) Viewed 2704 times
Using a wire from the speaker hole, I hooked the rope and pulled it up through the speaker hole. I used electrical tape to fasten the rope to the rubber tube.
Tape to get the rope fastened.
Tape to get the rope fastened.
Fasten the rope.png (1.52 MiB) Viewed 2704 times
With the rope fastened, I could pull the rope from the fender well while feeding the tube from above. After getting it thorough, I took off the tape and fed the rubber hose through the holes.
Routed through the holes.
Routed through the holes.
Through the holes.png (2.08 MiB) Viewed 2704 times
The final thing was the trim the hose and then put the fender splash guard back on. I also put some gasket sealer around the edge of the splash guard. It looked like there was something there before, but it had long since gotten brittle and was gone. Here's a picture of the final result from below.
Trimmed and ready to go.
Trimmed and ready to go.
Trimmed.png (1.21 MiB) Viewed 2704 times
I am relieved that I won't have tons of water in my interior. After all this, I went to the driver side to check if it was wet. I fear that I will have to repeat all this again as I detected moisture. What a pain. This will be a task for another day as I have no more hose and I need to turn my attention to other things today.
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by KINGJOHN808 »

songzunhuang wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:15 am
TimU wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:34 am Good to have an easy solution, especially when it's something that was never listed in the official troubleshooting manual.
$550 is about 4 hours labour where I live.
I don't think that's too bad a price to track down and resolve a tricky problem like this.

Glad you're back up and running!
Yeah, I'll count my blessings that it wasn't more. I think they spent a little over 2 hours on it. The rate was $175 per hour. Mechanics are getting expensive. In the overall cost, I didn't include the towing.

=====< update on 1/21 >===

Here's the harness that was repaired. It's the brown one that's disconnected in the picture. The resistor was behind the rubber boot on the harness. This is connected to the sensor mounted on the thermostat housing. I hope someone finds this issue much faster than I did if they are having various odd issues.

Temp Sensor harness.png

I have driven my car over 100 miles since the repair. Highway, city, stop and go, cold mornings. All is well now. The car runs smoother than I have ever remembered. Right now I am very happy with my car. :D
Aloha Song,

Coincidentally I just had the issue this morning on the way to get coffee. Came home went straight to the post to see if my 84 had the resistor, sure enough, it had been removed BUT whoever did the removal only crimped the wire together not soldered them. When I pulled the cap off, the wire slid out of the crimped butt connector.

Soldered and shrink wrapped the wiring, low and behold the issue went away. Just to test my work i started the car, pulled the connector off and was able to recreate the problem THEN remedy the problem by putting the connector back in place.

Starting to make me wonder what else little gems are hiding under the hood that I haven’t found yet. 🤣🤣

Mahalo’z again for the repair tip. Have a great weekend.
Ewa Kai, Hawai’i
1984 633CSi
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by songzunhuang »

KINGJOHN808 wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:05 pm
songzunhuang wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:15 am
TimU wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:34 am Good to have an easy solution, especially when it's something that was never listed in the official troubleshooting manual.
$550 is about 4 hours labour where I live.
I don't think that's too bad a price to track down and resolve a tricky problem like this.

Glad you're back up and running!
Yeah, I'll count my blessings that it wasn't more. I think they spent a little over 2 hours on it. The rate was $175 per hour. Mechanics are getting expensive. In the overall cost, I didn't include the towing.

=====< update on 1/21 >===

Here's the harness that was repaired. It's the brown one that's disconnected in the picture. The resistor was behind the rubber boot on the harness. This is connected to the sensor mounted on the thermostat housing. I hope someone finds this issue much faster than I did if they are having various odd issues.

Temp Sensor harness.png

I have driven my car over 100 miles since the repair. Highway, city, stop and go, cold mornings. All is well now. The car runs smoother than I have ever remembered. Right now I am very happy with my car. :D
Aloha Song,

Coincidentally I just had the issue this morning on the way to get coffee. Came home went straight to the post to see if my 84 had the resistor, sure enough, it had been removed BUT whoever did the removal only crimped the wire together not soldered them. When I pulled the cap off, the wire slid out of the crimped butt connector.

Soldered and shrink wrapped the wiring, low and behold the issue went away. Just to test my work i started the car, pulled the connector off and was able to recreate the problem THEN remedy the problem by putting the connector back in place.

Starting to make me wonder what else little gems are hiding under the hood that I haven’t found yet. 🤣🤣

Mahalo’z again for the repair tip. Have a great weekend.
Aloha!
I'm glad you got to this before it left you stranded. With the age of our cars, everything that can go wrong has probably happened or will soon happen. I replaced a lot of things tracking this down and learned a few things as well. For example, I purchased some high performance injectors, only to discover that they have the wrong impedance. Our cars use 2.5-3 ohm fuel injectors, not 15 ohms that many 635 series seem to have. I have checked my distributor cap and rotor and replaced my throttle position sensor (my WOT was not working), voltage regulator, speed sensor, plugs again, ECU, and more! I take solace in the fact that I am refreshing so many things. I also learned how to test our ECU harness at the connector. I've learned way too much about relays and reading the associated electrical diagrams.

I look forward to a period of care-free motoring. Those don't seem to last so long. One thing I noticed is that I will probably turn 200,000 miles this week during my commute. I've only 72 miles to go...
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Driver Side Water Drain and Wheel Rub

Post by songzunhuang »

It was such a nice sunny day, that I decided to tackle the drain tube on the driver's side. As usual, I discovered a few things and took care of them along the way. Here's the tasks in pictures.

First. I jacked up the car to remove the front wheel and the splash guard. Although possible to do the drain tube without removing the wheel, it's so much easier.
Jacked up and ready to go.
Jacked up and ready to go.
Get Ready.png (1.34 MiB) Viewed 2631 times
When I removed the wheel, I saw a spot where my tire was rubbing in the fender well when I am at full lock. I remember having to push in the metal a bit to give myself some clearance. I guess when the driver's side was repaired after the incident, the interference is back. So out came the baby sledge to move it in a few mm. That's all it took. I sprayed it with some rubberized undercoating afterwards.
Fixing my rubbing wheel.
Fixing my rubbing wheel.
No Rub.png (1.17 MiB) Viewed 2631 times
Then, I used the rope trick to attach the 5/8" OD rubber hose and pull it through. Now that I know exactly what to do, it was much easier. The hose was only about $2.50 a foot at the auto parts store. I got 2 feet, but I ended up needing less that 1 foot. The pipe tape is where the original drain tube and the new rubber hose are connected. Blue electrical tape is used for the rubber hose to rope junction.
Rope to pull it through.
Rope to pull it through.
Rope TRick.png (1.45 MiB) Viewed 2631 times
Finally, I pulled it through and realized that my driver fender had no hole at the bottom! Curiously, there was a big enough gap for water to drain. I tested it by pouring a lot of water into the Sunroof drain hole and it came out the gap without any issue. Recall that this fender was replaced when my front end was redone. I wonder why the donor car for the fender didn't have a hole? I didn't want to drill a 5/8" hole, so I just ended the rubber hose and had it drain at the gap. This will all be behind the splash guard, so it won't be visible anyway.
No drain hole!
No drain hole!
No Hole.png (1.38 MiB) Viewed 2631 times
So after that, I sealed it up and went for a nice drive along the ocean and checked out all the surfers. I also came across the part of the road that had fell into the ocean during all the rains! Westcliff drive was closed past the missing road, so I drove through Santa Cruz and returned home. It was a perfect day for a cruise and it gave me an excuse to air out and dry the interior.
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Song Huang
1984 633CSi
Last 7 of VIN: 6997383
songzunhuang
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Capturing a Milestone - 200K

Post by songzunhuang »

I purchased my shark way back in 2015 with about 142k showing on the odometer. Through the past 8 years, enduring lots of setbacks, a few wins and lot of time (and some money), I have managed to use this classic as my daily driver.

Well, last week on 1/24 it crossed a milestone.
Rolled over the odometer.
Rolled over the odometer.
200K.png (1.18 MiB) Viewed 2548 times
It's running really well and just in time for the fabulous Spring and Summer weather that we have in California. I look forward to many more years of fun motoring . I just wanted to share with the fine folks of this forum, with whom this milestone would have been impossible. Thanks.
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Song Huang
1984 633CSi
Last 7 of VIN: 6997383
GRNSHRK
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by GRNSHRK »

Congrats Song =D>

I think that many, if not most of us, would have long since given up \:D/

Hopefully many more happy miles to come [-o<
:mrgreen:
Bobbo
1980 633 CSi Cypress Green/Pearl Beige
2017 X5 M Sport Xdrive 35i Carbon Black/Ivory White
2005 330 Ci ZHP Cabrio Imola Red/Bone/Black
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Re: 1984 633CSi Rises again!

Post by hornhospital »

Wow! Has it really been 8 years? Your thread is truly a story of patience and persistence, probably the best thread on BigCoupe.com, I'm sure many would agree. Congrats, and I hope you have many more years of joy and adventures with your E24.

I wonder what happened to the E9 that was in the same barn where you found the E24?
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
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